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Calvinist dating my best friend and ex are dating

Calvinist dating

Funny, wise, grounded, interesting and — wait for it — he also came across as a sincerely humble man. He was really a breath of fresh air. None of these sites have a filter for crazy, do they? Because that would be a dealbreaker unless it came with a signed-in-blood and sworn recantation ala the intended outcome of the Diet of Worms. Can someone explain to me why Lutherans invent their own terms for the same crap? Hester :. Basically, I hate dating. Strangely I think there are probably better lines I can use.

I think in the end you just have to go with it, let there be some uncertainty, and be willing to take some time. But then, want do I know? I was just sitting there eating a salmonella sandwich When a man walked up to me Would you mind, dear boy, if I asked you a question? If music be the food of love, are you the indigestion?

Rafiki wrote:. But learning how similar dating in the church and outside of the church really is was disheartening. Santiago : Thank you for the lead on an Arminian comment. I will check into it. Congrats on getting out of Calvary Chapel. Garland :This is begging for inclusion in the post.

I am amending it to include your statement. Awesome and funny. Sincere question—Can someone be a Calvinist and an Arminian at the same time or are these terms mutually exclusive? This is truth. By the time you meet in person you may already be inclined to overlook red flags. Not everyone has that problem, necessarily. My aunt met a great guy on a Christian dating site. But I have reasons to be cautious.

I literally laughed out loud, at work, for the second time. I have no problem with dating sites that are meant to cater to a subset of people whose particular brand of belief be that Reformed or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is really important to them. I understand that someone whose Reformed views were important probably WOULD prefer to marry someone of a similar persuasion. Yes, amazingly this is a problem. You know, these new, young, restless, evangelical men just cannot control themselves.

So platonic friendships? Impossible in their world. Thankfully I choose to stand in my identity in Christ and they can stay in their man-made world of legalism and hierarchy. I am curious to know what your former room mate has to say! Foot :Great joke. Definitely mutually exclusive, assuming you mean going whole hog on either of their doctrines. People can believe a mix, but that would make you neither, not both. My guess would be a lot of people believe that you cannot lose your salvation Calvinism while believing in conditional election Arminianism.

The five points of Calvinism came about as direct statements to refute the five points of Arminiansim. I find that movie trailer so creepy. My experience with the courtship and patriarchal scene is that it produces people who are too immature to make their own decisions. Life is full of difficult decisions and painful consequences, but we have to learn the skills and experiences to make those decisions.

How is this woman going to handle the decisions that come with having children and raising them? This is stunting! Absolutely Sad Observer! I am not Reformed, Calvinist, or Arminian. However, I do not feel that this precludes me from having friendship and fellowship with other members in the Body who are.

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. Do you believe in God? Protestant or Catholic? What franchise? Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist? Oh yes, thatmom. I remember the McDonalds from Your Sacred Calling are the ones who had a daughter betrothed several years ago. They boasted on their website about how superior betrothal was. Then lo-and-behold their daughter kicked her betrothed man to the curb.

They quickly scrubbed their website of all the evidence he ever existed. Is that website for real or is it a parody of the real thing? Martos wrote:. The funny thing is that I actually spent a couple weeks on a trial unpaid membership to Sovereign Grace Singles. I said no, that I would not because I could not. Such a God would be a moral monster. Of course, if it were turned around and a Calvinist said it, it would be just as unacceptable.

In either case, it would reveal a person who places his own thoughts above all else, including God. Yes, that is absolutely for real and, in act, James and Stacy continue to be slated to speak on the topic of courtship at homeschooling conferences around the country using these questions as I understand it. And, yes, Joy, you remember correctly. Interestingly, her younger sister just became engaged after courting heh guy who courted the older sister.

Yet they teach that courtship is the biblical way. My sweet hubby loves to share funny e-mails he receives, and he shared your comment with me about a month ago. That video made me want to throw my laptop across the room. JeffB wrote:. Kathi — So much for honoring father and mother, yet they make her out to be the godly one and her parents to be imbeciles. Anybody else deeply, deeply disturbed by it? I have something particular in mind, something related to this post.

Bridget :. On Earth. Beakerj wrote:. Regardingthe Reformed Singles website: Several years ago, while researching Christian patriarchy, I discovered this gem by Douglas Wilson in the article section. He really gets to the practical meat of the matter mid-way, when he states that husbands should not fulfill the neglected duties that belong to their wives. His example is washing the dishes. If she rebels in keeping the dishes properly washed up, he should call the church elders to pay her a visit and address her sinful, rebellious state in neglecting the dirty dishes.

So, on certain dating sites, you have to get your pastor to vouch for you? Rob : Tsk, tsk, Rob. Your godly pastor will have a full administrative detail to check you out. They are watching…. Eagle :I agree with you. However, i am glad some of them have retained their sense of empathy. That appears to be a quality that was highly discouraged in those circle. He could only not believe if he were not chosen.

ScotT :I just finished reading it. The one thing that jumped out at me was the camaraderie of the evangelicals from that era. They then claim that this is their heritage but it is not. Welcome to TWW. I wonder if his wife could report him to the elders for being a condescending jerk. Beakerj : Another thought is this.

Beakerj :. This, this is my personal testimony that helps me believe that I am truly born again in my spirit and of the Spirit of God. The sudden hunger and thirst for righteousness in all of my being became immense. I am confident that if it were possible for God to turn evil…I would no longer follow God. And those who are evil will follow any one who is in control.

I think that is the problem with many of our religious leaders. At the last day when Jesus has to tell some of the greatest workers of His that He never knew them, it will be as pathetic as in the stories of conniving right hand men of unsuspecting righteous rulers that are finally caught in their own webs of deceit.

If God seems evil to you, you either have the wrong God or you are believing a lie. But you do know what is evil and what is good. We all do. If it walks like a duck…. Tree wrote:. Rob wrote:. That seems to be the one thing that makes an impression. Love the site, first time poster. Maybe Norman Geisler as well. Yes, Jani, you can be absolutely certain that God will set the record straight.

We absolutely believe that here at TWW. Brian : Good one on Caner. Roger Olson is a gentleman so I do not think it will come from those quarters. You can see it and hear it. Thank you. One down, three to go. Is Geisler Arminian? This sounds like the pre-nup for a political marriage straight out of Game of Thrones …. Jeff S : Geisler seems to waffle a bit.

The Arminians call him a soft Calvinist and the Calvinists view him with suspicion. I have listened to him for a long time. I would say he is difficult to pin down. Sounds a bit like me…. I heard him speak once on this subject so I hope I am not misrepresenting him. Jeff S :. That said, I thought he had some stern words for Calvinists but I might be thinking of someone else. Actually this would also eliminate pastors who could get a call from God at any time to move.

Headless Unicorn Guy :Thank you for making laugh. Did you even see the supposed video of him showing how he could take a taser? I noticed that one of the leads did not embed but he still hit the ground. Deb :Slander is a lie. Does she mean slander or merely saying something awkwardly truthful? About the not moving away from the grandparents post, I have talked to two mothers-in-law of big dog CLC pastors kids who insisted that all things go their way.

From holidays to vacations. I think I posted this on wrong thread How many Charismatics does it take to change a light bulb? One — since his or her hands are in the air anyway. How many Calvinists does it take to change a light bulb? God has predestined when the lights will be on..

How many Neo-evangelicals? No one knows. They cannot tell the difference between light and darkness. How many Pentecostals? One to change the bulb and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness…. How many TV evangelists? But for the message of light to continue, send in your donation….

How many Fundamentalists? How many Dispensationalists? Two — one to change the bulb and one to keep the promises to the old bulb. How many Promise Keepers? How many Episcopalians? None, they assume darkness is the nature of the bulb and it would be harmful and disrespecful to violate personality of the bulb. How many Charismatics?

Two — one to change the bulb, the other to have a breakthrough. How many Quakers? Someone will, but there is no one officially called to be a bulb changer. None — unless the Spirit witnesses to their spirit man that it should be done.

How many Baptists? Two, one to change the bulb, the other to preach on tithing in order to pay for the new bulb. How many Premillennialists? While knowing where the lightbulbs are, they are persuaded to wait for the official lightbulb changer but no one knows when he will arrive. How many Amillennialists? Two, one to change the bulb, the other to remind others not to fear the old darkness or trust the new light—both are only symbolic. How many Evolutionists? None — it will change itself — it will just take billions and billions of years.

How many Lutherans? How many Mormons? You can see a lot of similarites between SGM mess and Watergate. The one thing I see is the body count of poeople stepping away or being forced out or leaving. And like Watergaet the corruption in the Nixon White House was prevassvie and top down.

Meaning Nixon created a culture that corrupted other people and had them engage in illegal activities. Does Detwiler fancy himself, John Dean? Problem with the analogy is that SGM kept their child molestator protection program underwraps for many years. Hester wrote:. This theme is as old as the Globe theatre. Forbidden love between young and star crossed lovers from rival families.

The Montagues and the Capulets. The Hatfields and the McCoys. Now Arminians and Calvinists? That Mohler sure knows how to get his fingers in all the pies! Russ Moore is his creation. Anon 1 : I just saw that announcement and the thing that stood out to me is that he is the Chairman of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

Through a glass darkly wrote:. Moore used to work for democrat congressman Gene Taylor so he is uniquely qualified, I suppose. Muff Potter :. You mistyped your email. Check it next time and you will not be moderated.

Rafiki : A bit off topic, but I agree Hard Talk is great and can show individuals up in either a good or bad light. Dickinson came across as a very articulate, business-minded individual probably at odds with the image most people would have of him because of his career.

I saw Henry Winkler in another newsslot a few months ago think he was being decorated by the Queen and agree he was delightful. Jeff S : Jeff S, I strongly sympathise. Gavin White : Thanks for the laugh. Gavin, it pains me to be required to publicly acknowledge that you have a sense of humor. What you and Olson seem to be saying is that you will not follow God unless you are sure that His morality matches up with yours.

Does this not assume, at the least, that you are both also all-knowing? If God asked us our opinion concerning His idea of crucifying His Son, we would probably react as Peter did, and, likewise, might have been called Satan. Oh yes…. I can see that some people are emotionally somewhat incontinent, but I think this lurches too far the other way. This seems to apply even to emotional commitment without any sexual element, which I find strange. I went over to the Reformed Singles [dating] site link.

Yeah, that further restricts your mate choices, too. As most of you may recall, I would like to get married, and thought I would be by age 35, I am no in my early 40s but have never married. All the prayer in the world, and having faith in God to provide, has no effect in getting a spouse, either. You will actually find condescending, rude assumptions or comments about Christian virgins in articles, books, and blogs by Christian pastors and authors.

The only Christian virgins who get any respect for abstaining are those under the age of 25 — Christian preachers and authors actually have the tendency to show more compassion, forgiveness, and even respect , for Christians who have not remained chaste past the age of Stop putting career first!

Marry now! Gavin White : Gavin, He knows that. And yes, I think that book is by him. If a woman believes that she has to submit to her husband then nothing is a secondary issue when it comes to marriage. She can be required to go against her beliefs in secondary issues and the submission belief trumps any other secondary issues. Or is he writing it? Really — set standards and when she meets them add more? It reads like a Screwtape Letters for abuse — except that he is dead serious.

Eagle, seriously, a lot of conservative Christians already do this to unmarried Christians from many denominations. We are told on the one hand by most Christians and preachers that to achieve true godliness and maturity, we must marry. And we are told how great marriage is.

Can the church put on more singles events so we singles can meet and mingle, stuff like that? That happened to me, and I read an article which said that is their strategy, to give males more matches than women.

Kolya wrote:. Another burdensome Christianese imperative. It annoys the ever loving crud out of me that every time I have gone to a new church a few times the last few years, or meet a new Christian, it is always assumed I am a divorced, single mother.

Without fail. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:. That Reformed Singles site is downright creepy,where oh where is any freedom, or emotion or adult level anything? Lynne T wrote:. Some are obese, some are strange, etc. I went to one singles Sunday school class where one of the guys kept giggling through the whole class, even at inappropriate times, or when nobody said any thing.

A lot of Christian single men and secular are really limiting themselves by focusing on women under age If you are a Christian wanting to date an actual Christian, you would want to ask up front if they are saved, and ask them to define how they came to Christ to make sure. JeffB : I think you might want to give Olson a break. Let me see if i can argue his position. Please keep in mind, I am neither. If one believes that God has implanted in mankind some understanding of right and wrong then it might be possible to judge some actions as evil.

I understand the arguments that Piper and others make that, if God causes something that appears evil, it is not evil because God is always good and cannot do something that is wrong. Therefore it is our problem if something appears to be evil. Piper would argue that it is merely our inability to understand and trust God. But what if it is possible to judge evil? Jeff, this is a huge debate right now. NT Wright talks about it, Greg Boyd is talking about it. Olson is talking about it….

When we want to know God are we not to look to Jesus of Nazareth? JeffB — Concerning the quote about worshipping the God that Calvinism paints. For me, it is a very personal issue. Okay, I have wrestled with this. And this is my conviction. If God plans the rape of children, then he is no more worthy of being worshipped than a father who rapes his daughter. This is where this doctine takes me every time it is presented to me. The first time I arrived at this place, it scared me.

But I have talked with my Father about it and am now totally at peace with the above statement because the Father I know, love and worship is absolutely not like that. I am not wanting to start a fight or anything like that. I just wanted to maybe pull it out of the theoretically theology realm into the practical, real-life realm…. Daisy wrote:. As a mom of 2 daughters who will be of marriageable age in just a few short years, I am with you, Daisy.

I care a whole lot more how moral, loving, kind, and respectful they are. He was in a church that was Reformed and Charismatic. That was just the tip of the iceberg as you can well imagine based on all the SGM stuff that has come down. For the last 15 years, the most arrogant, deceitful with an entitlement mentality men I have met are evangelical Christians who think they are doing great things for God. Most are in some sort of ministry.

Or there might be one man in a room of 20 females. I am also 40ish and never married. There are literally no single men anywhere close to my age at my church. Exactly Hester and Jeff. There are so many non-bible-related rules in some Calvinista circles that you get Hypocrisy overlap or disqualification by imperfection.

If any man subjected themselves to a list like this I would not want them marrying my daughter. Daisy : I think a lot of churches are actually quite rough on divorced people… just my opinion, though. GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:. Muff Potter: You mistyped your email. Do you have an official policy about guest posts? Do you take submissions? If so, where should I send one?

I wrote one up that you can use on a day you need a break. Can you imagine that? Jeannette Altes : Jeannette, I have thought a lot about this since the exchange a few weeks ago on echurch. Through a glass darkly : Good point. It actually limits God. Now if only they could admit that.

The PB, or some of them, hold that women should not speak at church meetings and should wear head coverings 7 x 24 — probably not a lot of PB readers here! Or else James nearly strangled Dave — maybe both. He impressed me as a bit cranky, perhaps due to colic, and I seem to recall that he harangued a bit against Calvinism.

I would gladly donate these volumes to your research if I still had them. It is a small, highly praised volume you may have heard of it and will fit easily in the palm of your hand. The book should be available at firesale prices by the caseload at any former SG church.

Yeah, that is true, many Christians and denominations treat divorced people insultingly, but at least the divorced are acknowledged as existing. Never married Christians over 30 — 35, usually no. None of which describe my situation. So which class do I go to in such a church? In over 20 years of marriage I have found that theology is not what creates conflict….

Where is the emphasis on loving God and people? What about simple compatibility.. Simple chemistry and personalities. Oh, and not JUST look at the outside…some of the more homely looking Christian guys expected a knockout to be interested in them…fat…. It works both ways….

I think all older singles in the church have it rough. Divorce is an event, not a relationship status. FSGP wrote:. It was a book where White argued one chapter in favor of Calvinism, the other guy next chapter would refute those points, White would then address that chapter, etc.

They will also claim that the anti- Calvinist book and it matters not which book is nothing but a straw man against Calvinism, it misrepresents Calvinism. I used to debate Roman Catholics online,and they did the same thing. Always claimed any source you cited even if it was an RC site!

These sorts of people completely prevent any views from even being heard at the out-set by dismissing or ridiculing the source. This is actually one reason of many why I reject Calvinism, this frequently refusal to honestly and humbly deal with critics of their own belief, or dismiss all critics as imbeciles who get Calvinism wrong. Leila wrote:. BeakerJ wrote:.

How do they square that with the verse that says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked? Jeannette Altes :. I am very sorry that you have experienced such horror. Though I have never gone through anything like that, I know very well what suffering is. I know what it is to cry out to God in anguish and pain. Since I see the Bible as ultimate truth, I try my best — well, I try, anyway — to understand it, as presumably all believers do.

At least two things appear to me to be clear: God is all-knowing and all-powerful. I realize there are those who do not find the Bible to be clear on these matters. He saw God as desperately wanting to prevent this suffering but not being able to.

I give Kushner credit for risking ridicule by clearly laying it on the line, but I truly do not see Scripture as presenting God this way. As difficult as it to accept, I think God was capable of, for instance, preventing the Holocaust, just as He is capable of preventing a child from dying of cancer and of preventing all of the dreadful things people endure. I think this is true even when some snot-nosed Young Calvinist enjoys saying it in order to be shocking.

God will deal with him in His own way and time. Some Calvinists are human. We should never talk about these matters in a light-hearted way. Calvin himself at one point called them dreadful. That Amy Kohn video makes me sad. And the tears over not being able to give her first kiss to her husband? They are so wrapped up in the fantasy of what they think is supposed to make life perfect, they are blind to the fact that a marriage requires so much work.

Both wives said almost exactly the same thing to me after the divorce. I read this last summer and I think Carolyn Custis James has some really good things to say on this topic. Jeannette, I have thought a lot about this since the exchange a few weeks ago on echurch.

I think it depends solely on what presuppositions one brings to the Biblical text. If one insists that Scripture interprets Scripture, that is, connecting dots, and constructing an airtight Aristotelian box, then yes, you can make Scripture support just about anything you want it to support. On the other hand if you believe that you are endowed with a divine nature in addition to a fallen one, your conscience will tell you that a god who orchestrates pain and suffering for his creation and creatures in order to garner adulation for himself, is both a sociopath and a cosmic narcissist.

Calvinist Michael Horton says as much in his foreword to the book. Horton is a true scholar who is not interested in demolishing those who disagree with him. Joy wrote:. I see the point, but it sort of makes the biblical teachings of being a virgin until marriage pointless. Most Christians do not seriously adhere to virginity of marriage please scroll up to see one of my first post in this thread for an explanation of what I mean by that. It is utterly devastating to the one-in-four girls who is sexually abused before she reaches her 18th birthday … where an appalling 48 women are raped every hour in the Congo,… [etc].

The author also gives a very brief aside to mentioning males, but her focus is on females. Sexual purity teachings in the Bible also include males. I grieve all of this, but do not for a second imagine that any of this means a woman has less to offer a husband or that in any sense it diminishes her worth. The Gospel message for women and girls is bigger than moral purity. But what she has to offer a husband is more precious than her virginity or a gold medal.

Often in these sorts of critiques, there is no rationale given for remaining pure. Daisy, she never says not to remain pure. What I hear Carolyn saying in the article is that our virginity is not our entire worth. Those are the things that stood out to me. Some of the stories are actually quite happy and upbeat about couples who are still together and love each other … and kinda left MH years ago.

Same here, and it still plagues me. Please cut people a break, OK? And for those who are divorced or whose spouses have died — well, that brings a whole new set of challenges and deep loneliness. You might find friends there; even a potential spouse. Jeff S : Yes! I believe it to be more in the realm of sexual continence including abstinence. While women are never, EVER supposed to slip up.

Not even sex. I find it sad that her hand position for playing the piano is so flat fingered. There are just so many levels that this video is sad. Ya know??? Muff Potter : Indeed! Except Chairman Chuck Jo has several little red books. HoppyTheToad : We love guest posts. The only thing we ask that the two of us know your identity. We would never share it cone of silence and all. Send it along. How wonderful. I do have experience of being an unhappy single teenage Christian, though, and I can extrapolate at least to some extent.

So I can empathise by analogy. One of the difficulties that older singles in the church face is unfortunate but inevitable. In the end, the distillate which makes very hard-to-source whisky, btw is so concentrated that it only tastes of alcohol; the remaining water molecules are effectively dissolved in ethanol. In the same way, as a given group of never-married people gets older, it tends to get smaller, and the proportion of people in it who are single because no-one in their right mind would ever want to marry them gets higher.

Much could be added to that cursory introduction, but I have to go to a meeting the noo… brickbats welcome. Daisy : Yes! The chapters of the book did not match up well. White was on point and angry, Hunt pointless and, well, pointless.

He delivered this address back in to a home crowd of sycophants. It was said at the time that JM would not have dared deliver this message had he been sharing the conference with Piper, Dever, or Chuck Jo. Post-speech it was reported that JMac sustained a rotator cuff injury from patting himself on the back while 14 of his fanboys were treated for tongue abrasions due to excessive bootlicking.

As I understand Geisler,he argues that Arminians are more Calvinistic than hardcore ones in that they profess that a believer can have security and assurance of salvation in this life, like Moderate Calvinists. Geisler: Systematic Theology Volume 3. Beakerj :I love this answer. JeffB : Am I correct in saying that you do not believe that God causes rapes of children or the Holocaust but merely allows them?

If so, then that would be an Arminian position as well. This goes along with those who believe that since God created us and owns us, He is allowed to do whatever it is He wishes of us, including certifying the torturing rape and death of little Jessica Lunsford. I see God differently in that He is the one that is good and man is the one who has the issue with sin, not God.

It is also not a sin to question and wrestle with issues. Sometimes, I think there are some out there who need to prove their election or salvation by pretending that they have little trouble with a God who certifies the rape of a young child. It is a way to prove to themselves that they are really, really, really elect.

I can take it. I am not addicted to fantasy sports, any video game, social networking site, online simulation community or fairy wonderland. Gavin White : Could you please define what you mean when you say that Geisler believes in universal atonement? The reason I ask is because these days, for some, universal atonement means all are saved in the end and I know that is not what Geisler believes.

Because all hell would break loose if a woman was allowed to take control of her own romantic life? JeffB : I think it would be a great idea for everyone to read both of these books: Against Calvinism and For Calvinism. I really think they should be read together. I did something similar a number of years ago. As I went through them, I found myself nodding along with much of the books and disagreeing with some in the books.

This went on for a long time. In medicine, doctors are sometimes confronted with a sick patient who exhibits classic symptoms of one disease but does not respond to the treatment. Then the doctors believe it is simply another disease with similar symptoms. But, when the patient is still sick, they then must consider that this is an ill-defined condition that does not have an precise answers until we understand more. But, as humans, we want answers and we want them now.

We like a God who is boxed into a set of parameters and I am one of those so do not think I am pointing fingers. The Bible answers a lot of questions but it does not fully answer all of them. This is a stupid label that is put onto the issue of abstinence. I have fought that term since the day I first hear it. Can we talk pornography, etc.? And, on the off chance they are OK in the sex line of things, we can go onto anger, greed etc.

That trailer just about did me in. The poor girl crying because she gave away her first kiss. Heck, at the age of 5, I kissed Stephen who raced me down the slides and won. What a slut I am!!!! I need more coffee…. I found it odd that this grown woman was crying over the princess story. You know who I liked.

She, along with her husband, cracked me up. They truly respected her ability to make the right choices. Nick Bulbeck :What a bunch of dingbats. Everything was cause and effect. I have decided that, if such people enter my sphere, I am going to play head games with them. The traffic was bad? God was telling you to slow down. You got a cold? God is mad at you for eating too much pizza.

I laughed so hard, my coffee came out my nose! This one will be used one day in a post! Were you this funny in your previous pastorate? Pam : I just thought of another business model. We could have spies visit his church, listen to his answers, take pictures of how he hugs others, etc. We could bump into him on the street and, as we apologize, ask him his views on the Duggars. Then he had the audacity to re release the book!

Garland :Next time I write on this subject, I shall consult you first. You tell better jokes than I do! Perhaps I should have said universal extent of the atonement His conclusion on p of Volume states. With one notable and explainable exception the later Augustine ,there s no significant voice in the whole history of the church up to the Reformers that defended limited atonement. Indeed, the Bible is emphatic that God loved the whole fallen world and that Christ died for the same. What a great thread this has been, it really is what TWW is all about.

An interesting, enlightening, and passionate discussion on theology, doctrine, church governance, singleness and dating, the near-madness of evangelical culture, spiritual abuse, bad Christian filmmaking, the Fonz, Iron Maiden, Hard Talk on the BBC, etc. I am getting ready to hop on a long haul flight up back across the pond via Europe in a few hours.

I am done with my current posting, will be in the USA for a bit and then off again to the next job in about a month. Getting out of here involves a last ride in my beloved beat-to-hell Toyota 4Runner pray it gets me to the boat landing , a 45 minute speedboat ride, a bus ride pray the bus gets me to the airport and then onto the flights later tonight. Should be heading through US customs tomorrow evening at some point. This poor young lady had decent kind and loving parents and she rejected normalcy for a made-up courtship system of craziness.

BTW, a new pattern I am seeing in the blogosphere is failed marriages from courtships. I read one where they got married with a lot of red flags beforehand and they just did not connect and fall in love. In both situations, the couples were pushed into marriage by their parents, saying those feelings of love would come. Gavin White :. Dee — do you mean that the stuff I wrote was a sheep of height or that the leadership I mentioned were a bunch of dingbats?

Another failed social experiment compliments of Patriarchy. Calvin would have improved by developing a sense of humor, or failing that endeavor, to hire himself a court jester. It might have allowed him to get the required distance to see the silliness of a human deciding what it is like to be God.

Nick Bulbeck :. I understand and empathize with what you say. For me I am less concerned with how people view me and more concerned that they reject what I think is good and helpful doctrine for the wrong reasons. I actually cannot think of many incidents of being thought poorly of for being a Calvinist. Jeff S :Actually, think those who truly know Christ should behave outwardly the same whether they are Calvinist or not.

That is why I get frustrated when people demand adherence to a particular doctrine that does not include the essentials of the faith. I love a good discussion but I do not like arrogance on the part of anyone who adhere to a particular doctrinal system. I do have one by Ergun Caner but he is not at the same level of influence as a Sproul or Piper. Surely there is something out there in which a leader said that Calvinist were saved but barely… I promise you all I will print it here. The video of the young lady who lost her kissing-virginity broke my heart.

Nick Bulbeck wrote:. Just checking…. And just to help clarify the transatlantic communications, one tends to find sheep of height on the dung heap…. Patrice wrote:. People either do not want to know or admit the whole Servetus murder was premeditated. Calvin had written in a letter to a friend years before that if Servetus ever came to Geneva he would not leave alive.

Dee wrote:. Heather :One day, i shall understand all slang when i speak with the tongues of angels in heaven! Nick Bulbeck : Arminian Armenians-would that be a great blog post title or what! Anon 1 : I despise apologetics to anything but Jesus. Sometimes I get so frustrated when people defend the person or group of choice far more than they do our Lord. Good night! Calvin, Wesley, Piper or Olson.

We have all fallen short of the glory of God and that does not mean that some have fallen a little less short and deserve our worship! Everyone needs to get over it. We are ALL screwups. Does not matter what it is. God is Sovereign and controlling every molecule?

Ok, then that means He is controlling evil? Ok, so he controls everything but not evil? So they explain that When people are evil they are only doing what is natural as they are totally depraved. Ok, then, what about long time professing born again believers in leadership that you promote like Mahaney?

Well you are a sinner too so you cannot say anything. Do you think you are sinless perfection? It comes back to God is Sovereign which means controlling everything and man has no volition. Makes you wonder why we bother with a court system or disciplining our kids since they are totally depraved and unable to respond unless God forces them. Their foundational belief is that God is Sovereign and that MUST mean He is controlling everything and if not, it means He is not all powerful to them.

That is the false dichotomy of Calvinism. Any concept of free will or a Sovereign God who is so Sovereign He created beings who can say no to Him, is unthinkable. Everything is for His Glory to them, even heinous crimes. Piper has really become confusion 1 on this score. To the point that some are wondering if God is a narcissist!

And that is what concerns me. That is why Calvinists can hold conflicting beliefs. Historically Calvinism goes in waves. It either goes liberal, dies out, or reinvents itself into another form. What we are seeing today with the YRR resurgence, in my opinion, is another fad that is more of a backlash to the seeker church growth movement although they have adapted many of their tactics.

The gurus will have their current fame, make some money, have many followers and the next wave will be less stringent because you can only control people so long as it usually takes magisterial political power or without that, a charismatic type of leader.

Lots of controlling people in the serious Calvinistic movements of history. Along with proper supervision in a true courtship, this can be a very useful tool for people to meet Christian mates, and is a far superior method to the modern dating system. It is been quite a number of years since I have used Sovereign Grace Singles, but I am very thankful for the service it provide..

Can two people who live over miles apart and with a combined age of years find happiness in a new marriage? Our friend Dean, owner of SGS, asked us to write a testimonial for the new site! SGS was a real blessing to my wife and me,…. After reading his profile,.. Quick Search I am: Man Woman. Seeking a: Man Woman. New Members Our vision is to bring Reformed single Christian men and women together in faith-based relationships worldwide. Kelly and Jonathan. John Van Dyke Story. It was a little….

Tim and Carrie. Josh and Nancy. A Great Story- Combined Age of years!

WHO IS VANESSA HUDGENS DATING 2012

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Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. Do you believe in God? Protestant or Catholic? What franchise? Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist? Oh yes, thatmom. I remember the McDonalds from Your Sacred Calling are the ones who had a daughter betrothed several years ago.

They boasted on their website about how superior betrothal was. Then lo-and-behold their daughter kicked her betrothed man to the curb. They quickly scrubbed their website of all the evidence he ever existed. Is that website for real or is it a parody of the real thing? Martos wrote:. The funny thing is that I actually spent a couple weeks on a trial unpaid membership to Sovereign Grace Singles.

I said no, that I would not because I could not. Such a God would be a moral monster. Of course, if it were turned around and a Calvinist said it, it would be just as unacceptable. In either case, it would reveal a person who places his own thoughts above all else, including God. Yes, that is absolutely for real and, in act, James and Stacy continue to be slated to speak on the topic of courtship at homeschooling conferences around the country using these questions as I understand it.

And, yes, Joy, you remember correctly. Interestingly, her younger sister just became engaged after courting heh guy who courted the older sister. Yet they teach that courtship is the biblical way. My sweet hubby loves to share funny e-mails he receives, and he shared your comment with me about a month ago. That video made me want to throw my laptop across the room.

JeffB wrote:. Kathi — So much for honoring father and mother, yet they make her out to be the godly one and her parents to be imbeciles. Anybody else deeply, deeply disturbed by it? I have something particular in mind, something related to this post. Bridget :. On Earth. Beakerj wrote:. Regardingthe Reformed Singles website: Several years ago, while researching Christian patriarchy, I discovered this gem by Douglas Wilson in the article section. He really gets to the practical meat of the matter mid-way, when he states that husbands should not fulfill the neglected duties that belong to their wives.

His example is washing the dishes. If she rebels in keeping the dishes properly washed up, he should call the church elders to pay her a visit and address her sinful, rebellious state in neglecting the dirty dishes. So, on certain dating sites, you have to get your pastor to vouch for you?

Rob : Tsk, tsk, Rob. Your godly pastor will have a full administrative detail to check you out. They are watching…. Eagle :I agree with you. However, i am glad some of them have retained their sense of empathy. That appears to be a quality that was highly discouraged in those circle. He could only not believe if he were not chosen. ScotT :I just finished reading it. The one thing that jumped out at me was the camaraderie of the evangelicals from that era. They then claim that this is their heritage but it is not.

Welcome to TWW. I wonder if his wife could report him to the elders for being a condescending jerk. Beakerj : Another thought is this. Beakerj :. This, this is my personal testimony that helps me believe that I am truly born again in my spirit and of the Spirit of God. The sudden hunger and thirst for righteousness in all of my being became immense. I am confident that if it were possible for God to turn evil…I would no longer follow God.

And those who are evil will follow any one who is in control. I think that is the problem with many of our religious leaders. At the last day when Jesus has to tell some of the greatest workers of His that He never knew them, it will be as pathetic as in the stories of conniving right hand men of unsuspecting righteous rulers that are finally caught in their own webs of deceit.

If God seems evil to you, you either have the wrong God or you are believing a lie. But you do know what is evil and what is good. We all do. If it walks like a duck…. Tree wrote:. Rob wrote:. That seems to be the one thing that makes an impression.

Love the site, first time poster. Maybe Norman Geisler as well. Yes, Jani, you can be absolutely certain that God will set the record straight. We absolutely believe that here at TWW. Brian : Good one on Caner. Roger Olson is a gentleman so I do not think it will come from those quarters. You can see it and hear it.

Thank you. One down, three to go. Is Geisler Arminian? This sounds like the pre-nup for a political marriage straight out of Game of Thrones …. Jeff S : Geisler seems to waffle a bit. The Arminians call him a soft Calvinist and the Calvinists view him with suspicion. I have listened to him for a long time. I would say he is difficult to pin down. Sounds a bit like me…. I heard him speak once on this subject so I hope I am not misrepresenting him.

Jeff S :. That said, I thought he had some stern words for Calvinists but I might be thinking of someone else. Actually this would also eliminate pastors who could get a call from God at any time to move. Headless Unicorn Guy :Thank you for making laugh. Did you even see the supposed video of him showing how he could take a taser?

I noticed that one of the leads did not embed but he still hit the ground. Deb :Slander is a lie. Does she mean slander or merely saying something awkwardly truthful? About the not moving away from the grandparents post, I have talked to two mothers-in-law of big dog CLC pastors kids who insisted that all things go their way. From holidays to vacations. I think I posted this on wrong thread How many Charismatics does it take to change a light bulb?

One — since his or her hands are in the air anyway. How many Calvinists does it take to change a light bulb? God has predestined when the lights will be on.. How many Neo-evangelicals? No one knows. They cannot tell the difference between light and darkness. How many Pentecostals? One to change the bulb and nine to pray against the spirit of darkness…. How many TV evangelists? But for the message of light to continue, send in your donation….

How many Fundamentalists? How many Dispensationalists? Two — one to change the bulb and one to keep the promises to the old bulb. How many Promise Keepers? How many Episcopalians? None, they assume darkness is the nature of the bulb and it would be harmful and disrespecful to violate personality of the bulb. How many Charismatics? Two — one to change the bulb, the other to have a breakthrough.

How many Quakers? Someone will, but there is no one officially called to be a bulb changer. None — unless the Spirit witnesses to their spirit man that it should be done. How many Baptists? Two, one to change the bulb, the other to preach on tithing in order to pay for the new bulb. How many Premillennialists? While knowing where the lightbulbs are, they are persuaded to wait for the official lightbulb changer but no one knows when he will arrive.

How many Amillennialists? Two, one to change the bulb, the other to remind others not to fear the old darkness or trust the new light—both are only symbolic. How many Evolutionists? None — it will change itself — it will just take billions and billions of years. How many Lutherans? How many Mormons? You can see a lot of similarites between SGM mess and Watergate.

The one thing I see is the body count of poeople stepping away or being forced out or leaving. And like Watergaet the corruption in the Nixon White House was prevassvie and top down. Meaning Nixon created a culture that corrupted other people and had them engage in illegal activities. Does Detwiler fancy himself, John Dean? Problem with the analogy is that SGM kept their child molestator protection program underwraps for many years.

Hester wrote:. This theme is as old as the Globe theatre. Forbidden love between young and star crossed lovers from rival families. The Montagues and the Capulets. The Hatfields and the McCoys. Now Arminians and Calvinists? That Mohler sure knows how to get his fingers in all the pies! Russ Moore is his creation. Anon 1 : I just saw that announcement and the thing that stood out to me is that he is the Chairman of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.

Through a glass darkly wrote:. Moore used to work for democrat congressman Gene Taylor so he is uniquely qualified, I suppose. Muff Potter :. You mistyped your email. Check it next time and you will not be moderated. Rafiki : A bit off topic, but I agree Hard Talk is great and can show individuals up in either a good or bad light. Dickinson came across as a very articulate, business-minded individual probably at odds with the image most people would have of him because of his career.

I saw Henry Winkler in another newsslot a few months ago think he was being decorated by the Queen and agree he was delightful. Jeff S : Jeff S, I strongly sympathise. Gavin White : Thanks for the laugh. Gavin, it pains me to be required to publicly acknowledge that you have a sense of humor.

What you and Olson seem to be saying is that you will not follow God unless you are sure that His morality matches up with yours. Does this not assume, at the least, that you are both also all-knowing? If God asked us our opinion concerning His idea of crucifying His Son, we would probably react as Peter did, and, likewise, might have been called Satan. Oh yes…. I can see that some people are emotionally somewhat incontinent, but I think this lurches too far the other way.

This seems to apply even to emotional commitment without any sexual element, which I find strange. I went over to the Reformed Singles [dating] site link. Yeah, that further restricts your mate choices, too. As most of you may recall, I would like to get married, and thought I would be by age 35, I am no in my early 40s but have never married.

All the prayer in the world, and having faith in God to provide, has no effect in getting a spouse, either. You will actually find condescending, rude assumptions or comments about Christian virgins in articles, books, and blogs by Christian pastors and authors. The only Christian virgins who get any respect for abstaining are those under the age of 25 — Christian preachers and authors actually have the tendency to show more compassion, forgiveness, and even respect , for Christians who have not remained chaste past the age of Stop putting career first!

Marry now! Gavin White : Gavin, He knows that. And yes, I think that book is by him. If a woman believes that she has to submit to her husband then nothing is a secondary issue when it comes to marriage. She can be required to go against her beliefs in secondary issues and the submission belief trumps any other secondary issues. Or is he writing it? Really — set standards and when she meets them add more? It reads like a Screwtape Letters for abuse — except that he is dead serious.

Eagle, seriously, a lot of conservative Christians already do this to unmarried Christians from many denominations. We are told on the one hand by most Christians and preachers that to achieve true godliness and maturity, we must marry. And we are told how great marriage is. Can the church put on more singles events so we singles can meet and mingle, stuff like that? That happened to me, and I read an article which said that is their strategy, to give males more matches than women.

Kolya wrote:. Another burdensome Christianese imperative. It annoys the ever loving crud out of me that every time I have gone to a new church a few times the last few years, or meet a new Christian, it is always assumed I am a divorced, single mother.

Without fail. Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:. That Reformed Singles site is downright creepy,where oh where is any freedom, or emotion or adult level anything? Lynne T wrote:. Some are obese, some are strange, etc. I went to one singles Sunday school class where one of the guys kept giggling through the whole class, even at inappropriate times, or when nobody said any thing. A lot of Christian single men and secular are really limiting themselves by focusing on women under age If you are a Christian wanting to date an actual Christian, you would want to ask up front if they are saved, and ask them to define how they came to Christ to make sure.

JeffB : I think you might want to give Olson a break. Let me see if i can argue his position. Please keep in mind, I am neither. If one believes that God has implanted in mankind some understanding of right and wrong then it might be possible to judge some actions as evil. I understand the arguments that Piper and others make that, if God causes something that appears evil, it is not evil because God is always good and cannot do something that is wrong. Therefore it is our problem if something appears to be evil.

Piper would argue that it is merely our inability to understand and trust God. But what if it is possible to judge evil? Jeff, this is a huge debate right now. NT Wright talks about it, Greg Boyd is talking about it. Olson is talking about it…. When we want to know God are we not to look to Jesus of Nazareth?

JeffB — Concerning the quote about worshipping the God that Calvinism paints. For me, it is a very personal issue. Okay, I have wrestled with this. And this is my conviction. If God plans the rape of children, then he is no more worthy of being worshipped than a father who rapes his daughter. This is where this doctine takes me every time it is presented to me. The first time I arrived at this place, it scared me. But I have talked with my Father about it and am now totally at peace with the above statement because the Father I know, love and worship is absolutely not like that.

I am not wanting to start a fight or anything like that. I just wanted to maybe pull it out of the theoretically theology realm into the practical, real-life realm…. Daisy wrote:. As a mom of 2 daughters who will be of marriageable age in just a few short years, I am with you, Daisy.

I care a whole lot more how moral, loving, kind, and respectful they are. He was in a church that was Reformed and Charismatic. That was just the tip of the iceberg as you can well imagine based on all the SGM stuff that has come down. For the last 15 years, the most arrogant, deceitful with an entitlement mentality men I have met are evangelical Christians who think they are doing great things for God. Most are in some sort of ministry.

Or there might be one man in a room of 20 females. I am also 40ish and never married. There are literally no single men anywhere close to my age at my church. Exactly Hester and Jeff. There are so many non-bible-related rules in some Calvinista circles that you get Hypocrisy overlap or disqualification by imperfection. If any man subjected themselves to a list like this I would not want them marrying my daughter. Daisy : I think a lot of churches are actually quite rough on divorced people… just my opinion, though.

GuyBehindtheCurtain wrote:. Muff Potter: You mistyped your email. Do you have an official policy about guest posts? Do you take submissions? If so, where should I send one? I wrote one up that you can use on a day you need a break. Can you imagine that? Jeannette Altes : Jeannette, I have thought a lot about this since the exchange a few weeks ago on echurch. Through a glass darkly : Good point. It actually limits God. Now if only they could admit that. The PB, or some of them, hold that women should not speak at church meetings and should wear head coverings 7 x 24 — probably not a lot of PB readers here!

Or else James nearly strangled Dave — maybe both. He impressed me as a bit cranky, perhaps due to colic, and I seem to recall that he harangued a bit against Calvinism. I would gladly donate these volumes to your research if I still had them. It is a small, highly praised volume you may have heard of it and will fit easily in the palm of your hand.

The book should be available at firesale prices by the caseload at any former SG church. Yeah, that is true, many Christians and denominations treat divorced people insultingly, but at least the divorced are acknowledged as existing. Never married Christians over 30 — 35, usually no. None of which describe my situation. So which class do I go to in such a church? In over 20 years of marriage I have found that theology is not what creates conflict…. Where is the emphasis on loving God and people?

What about simple compatibility.. Simple chemistry and personalities. Oh, and not JUST look at the outside…some of the more homely looking Christian guys expected a knockout to be interested in them…fat…. It works both ways…. I think all older singles in the church have it rough. Divorce is an event, not a relationship status.

FSGP wrote:. It was a book where White argued one chapter in favor of Calvinism, the other guy next chapter would refute those points, White would then address that chapter, etc. They will also claim that the anti- Calvinist book and it matters not which book is nothing but a straw man against Calvinism, it misrepresents Calvinism. I used to debate Roman Catholics online,and they did the same thing.

Always claimed any source you cited even if it was an RC site! These sorts of people completely prevent any views from even being heard at the out-set by dismissing or ridiculing the source. This is actually one reason of many why I reject Calvinism, this frequently refusal to honestly and humbly deal with critics of their own belief, or dismiss all critics as imbeciles who get Calvinism wrong.

Leila wrote:. BeakerJ wrote:. How do they square that with the verse that says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked? Jeannette Altes :. I am very sorry that you have experienced such horror. Though I have never gone through anything like that, I know very well what suffering is. I know what it is to cry out to God in anguish and pain. Since I see the Bible as ultimate truth, I try my best — well, I try, anyway — to understand it, as presumably all believers do.

At least two things appear to me to be clear: God is all-knowing and all-powerful. I realize there are those who do not find the Bible to be clear on these matters. He saw God as desperately wanting to prevent this suffering but not being able to. I give Kushner credit for risking ridicule by clearly laying it on the line, but I truly do not see Scripture as presenting God this way.

As difficult as it to accept, I think God was capable of, for instance, preventing the Holocaust, just as He is capable of preventing a child from dying of cancer and of preventing all of the dreadful things people endure. I think this is true even when some snot-nosed Young Calvinist enjoys saying it in order to be shocking.

God will deal with him in His own way and time. Some Calvinists are human. We should never talk about these matters in a light-hearted way. Calvin himself at one point called them dreadful. That Amy Kohn video makes me sad. And the tears over not being able to give her first kiss to her husband? They are so wrapped up in the fantasy of what they think is supposed to make life perfect, they are blind to the fact that a marriage requires so much work. Both wives said almost exactly the same thing to me after the divorce.

I read this last summer and I think Carolyn Custis James has some really good things to say on this topic. Jeannette, I have thought a lot about this since the exchange a few weeks ago on echurch. I think it depends solely on what presuppositions one brings to the Biblical text.

If one insists that Scripture interprets Scripture, that is, connecting dots, and constructing an airtight Aristotelian box, then yes, you can make Scripture support just about anything you want it to support. On the other hand if you believe that you are endowed with a divine nature in addition to a fallen one, your conscience will tell you that a god who orchestrates pain and suffering for his creation and creatures in order to garner adulation for himself, is both a sociopath and a cosmic narcissist.

Calvinist Michael Horton says as much in his foreword to the book. Horton is a true scholar who is not interested in demolishing those who disagree with him. Joy wrote:. I see the point, but it sort of makes the biblical teachings of being a virgin until marriage pointless. Most Christians do not seriously adhere to virginity of marriage please scroll up to see one of my first post in this thread for an explanation of what I mean by that. It is utterly devastating to the one-in-four girls who is sexually abused before she reaches her 18th birthday … where an appalling 48 women are raped every hour in the Congo,… [etc].

The author also gives a very brief aside to mentioning males, but her focus is on females. Sexual purity teachings in the Bible also include males. I grieve all of this, but do not for a second imagine that any of this means a woman has less to offer a husband or that in any sense it diminishes her worth. The Gospel message for women and girls is bigger than moral purity.

But what she has to offer a husband is more precious than her virginity or a gold medal. Often in these sorts of critiques, there is no rationale given for remaining pure. Daisy, she never says not to remain pure. What I hear Carolyn saying in the article is that our virginity is not our entire worth. Those are the things that stood out to me. Some of the stories are actually quite happy and upbeat about couples who are still together and love each other … and kinda left MH years ago.

Same here, and it still plagues me. Please cut people a break, OK? And for those who are divorced or whose spouses have died — well, that brings a whole new set of challenges and deep loneliness. You might find friends there; even a potential spouse. Jeff S : Yes! I believe it to be more in the realm of sexual continence including abstinence. While women are never, EVER supposed to slip up.

Not even sex. I find it sad that her hand position for playing the piano is so flat fingered. There are just so many levels that this video is sad. Ya know??? Muff Potter : Indeed! Except Chairman Chuck Jo has several little red books. HoppyTheToad : We love guest posts. The only thing we ask that the two of us know your identity. We would never share it cone of silence and all. Send it along. How wonderful.

I do have experience of being an unhappy single teenage Christian, though, and I can extrapolate at least to some extent. So I can empathise by analogy. One of the difficulties that older singles in the church face is unfortunate but inevitable. In the end, the distillate which makes very hard-to-source whisky, btw is so concentrated that it only tastes of alcohol; the remaining water molecules are effectively dissolved in ethanol.

In the same way, as a given group of never-married people gets older, it tends to get smaller, and the proportion of people in it who are single because no-one in their right mind would ever want to marry them gets higher. Much could be added to that cursory introduction, but I have to go to a meeting the noo… brickbats welcome. Daisy : Yes! The chapters of the book did not match up well. White was on point and angry, Hunt pointless and, well, pointless.

He delivered this address back in to a home crowd of sycophants. It was said at the time that JM would not have dared deliver this message had he been sharing the conference with Piper, Dever, or Chuck Jo. Post-speech it was reported that JMac sustained a rotator cuff injury from patting himself on the back while 14 of his fanboys were treated for tongue abrasions due to excessive bootlicking.

As I understand Geisler,he argues that Arminians are more Calvinistic than hardcore ones in that they profess that a believer can have security and assurance of salvation in this life, like Moderate Calvinists. Geisler: Systematic Theology Volume 3. Beakerj :I love this answer. JeffB : Am I correct in saying that you do not believe that God causes rapes of children or the Holocaust but merely allows them? If so, then that would be an Arminian position as well.

This goes along with those who believe that since God created us and owns us, He is allowed to do whatever it is He wishes of us, including certifying the torturing rape and death of little Jessica Lunsford. I see God differently in that He is the one that is good and man is the one who has the issue with sin, not God. It is also not a sin to question and wrestle with issues. Sometimes, I think there are some out there who need to prove their election or salvation by pretending that they have little trouble with a God who certifies the rape of a young child.

It is a way to prove to themselves that they are really, really, really elect. I can take it. I am not addicted to fantasy sports, any video game, social networking site, online simulation community or fairy wonderland. Gavin White : Could you please define what you mean when you say that Geisler believes in universal atonement?

The reason I ask is because these days, for some, universal atonement means all are saved in the end and I know that is not what Geisler believes. Because all hell would break loose if a woman was allowed to take control of her own romantic life? JeffB : I think it would be a great idea for everyone to read both of these books: Against Calvinism and For Calvinism. I really think they should be read together.

I did something similar a number of years ago. As I went through them, I found myself nodding along with much of the books and disagreeing with some in the books. This went on for a long time. In medicine, doctors are sometimes confronted with a sick patient who exhibits classic symptoms of one disease but does not respond to the treatment. Then the doctors believe it is simply another disease with similar symptoms. But, when the patient is still sick, they then must consider that this is an ill-defined condition that does not have an precise answers until we understand more.

But, as humans, we want answers and we want them now. We like a God who is boxed into a set of parameters and I am one of those so do not think I am pointing fingers. The Bible answers a lot of questions but it does not fully answer all of them. This is a stupid label that is put onto the issue of abstinence.

I have fought that term since the day I first hear it. Can we talk pornography, etc.? And, on the off chance they are OK in the sex line of things, we can go onto anger, greed etc. That trailer just about did me in. The poor girl crying because she gave away her first kiss. Heck, at the age of 5, I kissed Stephen who raced me down the slides and won. What a slut I am!!!! I need more coffee…. I found it odd that this grown woman was crying over the princess story.

You know who I liked. She, along with her husband, cracked me up. They truly respected her ability to make the right choices. Nick Bulbeck :What a bunch of dingbats. Everything was cause and effect. I have decided that, if such people enter my sphere, I am going to play head games with them. The traffic was bad? God was telling you to slow down. You got a cold? God is mad at you for eating too much pizza. I laughed so hard, my coffee came out my nose!

This one will be used one day in a post! Were you this funny in your previous pastorate? Pam : I just thought of another business model. We could have spies visit his church, listen to his answers, take pictures of how he hugs others, etc. We could bump into him on the street and, as we apologize, ask him his views on the Duggars.

Then he had the audacity to re release the book! Garland :Next time I write on this subject, I shall consult you first. You tell better jokes than I do! Perhaps I should have said universal extent of the atonement His conclusion on p of Volume states. With one notable and explainable exception the later Augustine ,there s no significant voice in the whole history of the church up to the Reformers that defended limited atonement.

Indeed, the Bible is emphatic that God loved the whole fallen world and that Christ died for the same. What a great thread this has been, it really is what TWW is all about. An interesting, enlightening, and passionate discussion on theology, doctrine, church governance, singleness and dating, the near-madness of evangelical culture, spiritual abuse, bad Christian filmmaking, the Fonz, Iron Maiden, Hard Talk on the BBC, etc.

I am getting ready to hop on a long haul flight up back across the pond via Europe in a few hours. I am done with my current posting, will be in the USA for a bit and then off again to the next job in about a month. Getting out of here involves a last ride in my beloved beat-to-hell Toyota 4Runner pray it gets me to the boat landing , a 45 minute speedboat ride, a bus ride pray the bus gets me to the airport and then onto the flights later tonight.

Should be heading through US customs tomorrow evening at some point. This poor young lady had decent kind and loving parents and she rejected normalcy for a made-up courtship system of craziness. BTW, a new pattern I am seeing in the blogosphere is failed marriages from courtships. I read one where they got married with a lot of red flags beforehand and they just did not connect and fall in love.

In both situations, the couples were pushed into marriage by their parents, saying those feelings of love would come. Gavin White :. Dee — do you mean that the stuff I wrote was a sheep of height or that the leadership I mentioned were a bunch of dingbats? Another failed social experiment compliments of Patriarchy. Calvin would have improved by developing a sense of humor, or failing that endeavor, to hire himself a court jester.

It might have allowed him to get the required distance to see the silliness of a human deciding what it is like to be God. Nick Bulbeck :. I understand and empathize with what you say. For me I am less concerned with how people view me and more concerned that they reject what I think is good and helpful doctrine for the wrong reasons. I actually cannot think of many incidents of being thought poorly of for being a Calvinist.

Jeff S :Actually, think those who truly know Christ should behave outwardly the same whether they are Calvinist or not. That is why I get frustrated when people demand adherence to a particular doctrine that does not include the essentials of the faith. I love a good discussion but I do not like arrogance on the part of anyone who adhere to a particular doctrinal system.

I do have one by Ergun Caner but he is not at the same level of influence as a Sproul or Piper. Surely there is something out there in which a leader said that Calvinist were saved but barely… I promise you all I will print it here. The video of the young lady who lost her kissing-virginity broke my heart. Nick Bulbeck wrote:. Just checking….

And just to help clarify the transatlantic communications, one tends to find sheep of height on the dung heap…. Patrice wrote:. People either do not want to know or admit the whole Servetus murder was premeditated. Calvin had written in a letter to a friend years before that if Servetus ever came to Geneva he would not leave alive.

Dee wrote:. Heather :One day, i shall understand all slang when i speak with the tongues of angels in heaven! Nick Bulbeck : Arminian Armenians-would that be a great blog post title or what! Anon 1 : I despise apologetics to anything but Jesus.

Sometimes I get so frustrated when people defend the person or group of choice far more than they do our Lord. Good night! Calvin, Wesley, Piper or Olson. We have all fallen short of the glory of God and that does not mean that some have fallen a little less short and deserve our worship! Everyone needs to get over it. We are ALL screwups.

Does not matter what it is. God is Sovereign and controlling every molecule? Ok, then that means He is controlling evil? Ok, so he controls everything but not evil? So they explain that When people are evil they are only doing what is natural as they are totally depraved. Ok, then, what about long time professing born again believers in leadership that you promote like Mahaney? Well you are a sinner too so you cannot say anything. Do you think you are sinless perfection?

It comes back to God is Sovereign which means controlling everything and man has no volition. Makes you wonder why we bother with a court system or disciplining our kids since they are totally depraved and unable to respond unless God forces them.

Their foundational belief is that God is Sovereign and that MUST mean He is controlling everything and if not, it means He is not all powerful to them. That is the false dichotomy of Calvinism. Any concept of free will or a Sovereign God who is so Sovereign He created beings who can say no to Him, is unthinkable. Everything is for His Glory to them, even heinous crimes. Piper has really become confusion 1 on this score.

To the point that some are wondering if God is a narcissist! And that is what concerns me. That is why Calvinists can hold conflicting beliefs. Historically Calvinism goes in waves. It either goes liberal, dies out, or reinvents itself into another form. What we are seeing today with the YRR resurgence, in my opinion, is another fad that is more of a backlash to the seeker church growth movement although they have adapted many of their tactics.

The gurus will have their current fame, make some money, have many followers and the next wave will be less stringent because you can only control people so long as it usually takes magisterial political power or without that, a charismatic type of leader. Lots of controlling people in the serious Calvinistic movements of history. I despise apologetics to anything but Jesus. I will defend Jesus Christ all day long. I might say what I know personally about them but I will listen to folks who have a story, too.

And if I hear this excuse for evil perpetuated by leaders and churches one more time, I will go screaming into the woods: You will never find a perfect church. I was never looking for a perfect church! Just one seeking to be pure, transparent and loving. Anon 1 wrote:. Julie Anne wrote:. Especially about themselves or their own True Belief. Next time you hear that in person, try coming out as gay. How hard it is to be too small to know the mind of God and to be required to rely on faith, confidence in what we hope for, assurance about what we do not see.

It seems to me that Piper Calvin et al find their smallness unbearable, and the need for that much faith untenable, and so replaced faith with nailed-down doctrine. Thus once again exhibiting our endless propensity to insist that we are big enough to understand everything and reside at the center of the universe. PhillyInDC wrote:. Just what IS the appeal of Fantasy Sports leagues? High School jock wanna-bes? Nickname wrote:. That is exactly what I thought, Nickname.

What complete disrespect on her part. And unbelievable arrogance on the part of these others who have such a limited knowledge of her and her extended family, and yet presume to have better judgment regarding such a major decision. Actually, think those who truly know Christ should behave outwardly the same whether they are Calvinist or not. But on the whole, I think doctrines like how we view our salvation are more about how we view ourselves than how we view others.

The young woman in the video is heartbreakingly naive. I wish someone would sit down and be very blunt with her about how sex is not all rainbows and sunshine. When I was at Christian college, a young woman in one of my classes wrote a poem about her marriage.

She wrote about all the giddy excitement of preparing for the wedding but the last word of the poem described how she felt about the wedding night: Rape. I believe she was truly horrified by the experience. Calvin could be in hell right now for all I know of him and his direct teachings. As for taking things to their logical conclusion, I wish we could just let that go.

We can use it for how it is useful, but we should never allow it to rise above scripture or the person of Jesus Christ. People will always do that, but it does not make the systems unuseful. And for me, that the scripture teaches perdestination, total depravity, unconditional election, and perseverence of the saints is clear as day limited atonement is a different story and it really depends on how it is defined.

Who is wrong? Do I think God is soverign? You betcha. Do I think man has freewill? Do I understand how these things work out? Realize that this is a fictional movie vs. If someone is that spiritual then they should be able to develop the self control to get their weight to reasonable range. As Paul said exercise self control in all things.

She has in her mind that there is only one proper way to meet a husband and thus closes her mind to anything outside of this way. Just so everyone know. Toilet paper rolls should come forward over the TOP. Anything else is an anathema. No discussion allowed. Steve wrote:. Plus, the archetype of the grossly-fat SBC preacher ranting from the pulpit about some Sexual Sin or other Homosexuality being the favorite has too much basis in fact.

There are a lot of them on YouTube.

MAN DATING YOUNGER WOMAN

В ТЦ ТРАМПЛИН для мам и КАД и Ленинградской. Доставка осуществляется в Мы открыли наш 3-й фирменный магазин подгузники в Екатеринбурге. Наш 4-й фирменный Доставка осуществляется в сделаны с применением рабочих дней, в зависимости от загруженности Тишинская площадь 1.

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Quelle horror! Thanks for a very thoughtful post, Michael. But we need to be careful to not reject sincere followers of Christ—legitimate evangelicals—because we have differing viewpoints on how God exercises His sovereignty. I have been married for nearly 20 years. The real concern is whether or not they should pro-create. And happily married for almost 11 years now too! However… truthfully and in hindsight we were a bit of an exception. The Church you will need to find is a more difficult task, which took us a while.

But God lead us to a solid body Calvinist anyone? The second part took me about 5 months of reading to even figure out what it meant. The first piece is omitted too frequently. I agree with CMP that it is wise council to make sure they hash out those theological fundamentals before engaging in a relationship.

In plus years of doing marital therapy with Christians, I have never had a couple come into my office and say that their problems stemmed from one being an Arminian and the other a Calvinist. A blessing, I believe the psalmist calls it. We could go through life happily and compatibly arrogant, no? Theological issues are rarely, if ever, the cause of marital problems. They may be a symptom of or a mask for deeper issues, but not the cause. Just wondering. It was a little stressful finding a church when your wife is an Arminian but you are a Calvinist.

Ksmac hits a point that needs to be more urgently considered. Also, what will the children be taught? A marriage can easily do the same. There seems to be some correlation between the two and Calvinism and Arminianism. Generally speaking although not always Calvinists are more complementarian and Arminians are more egalitarian.

Given that, it one might see different rates of marriage success based on which spouse is which. For example a Calvinist husband would seem more likely to butt heads with his Arminain wife than would an Arminian husband with a Calvinist wife. I wonder about the male ego in a situation like this regardless of Calvinism or Arminianism, Complementarian or Egalitarian.

It would take a different fellow, that could have his wife disagree with him on something of this importance, hopefully important, and not take it personally. If the Calvinist wants to marry the Arminian, he should admit he is wrong and become an Arminian! My parents helped dress us up and my Sunday school teachers presided.

Then, sometime between the time I left childhood well actually when I got too big to pass myself off as elementary school age and when I got my own kids, some wacko branch of evangelicalism took over. Since when did evangelicals decide that their own harmless and fun Halloween experiences were a fluke, and that dressing up inevitably leads to cross-dressing and satanic rituals and sacrifices behind the school gym after ?

That alone is reason to pull the plug on the internet and google. Since when did our lives become chapters in a Frank Peretti novel? Do people actually think that stuff is true? That Bob Larson was an authority? It really bothers me that evangelicals have turned an evening of fun into a salvation risk. I just want my kids and my nephews and nieces to dress up in cute outfits, trick or treat with their friends, and meet their neighbours without having my pastor and elders come to my house for an exorcism and cleansing.

How lame. Ranks right up their with New Years Eve watchnight services. Not only would I be embarrassed to go and properly so , but it constitutes the sort of cruelty to children that rates having them taken away by the local Child and Family Services. I would highly not recommend that a Calvinist should marry an Arminian. They both worship two different gods. Just like the Mormon god is not the same god of a baptist. Might as well marry a Roman Catholic.

Especially on which god to worship. The Jesus of Calvinism does not lose not 1 of his sheep, the Jesus of Arminianism fails to keep his sheep. The Jesus of Arminianism promises salvation if you preserver. The Jesus of Calvinism promises Preserverance because you are saved. I as a former Arminian now by the grace of God hold on to the doctrine of Grace as it is the gospel.

Would not date or Marry someone who does not worship and have admiration for the Christ revealed in scripture. There is no good news Gospel in the so called gospel of Arminianism. I could marry a dispensationist or a credo- baptist but when it comes to the gospel there is where I draw the line. The Calvinist gospel and Arminian gospel are not the same. The flock of sheep should represent all of humanity.

The analogy should go like this: The Jesus of Calvinism only chose a portion of the flock to save, allowing the rest to wonder off and perish. The Jesus of Arminianism did everything in His power to keep the sheep safe; those that trusted Him followed Him and were saved, those that repeatedly ignored Him were lost and perished. The god of Calvinism picks and chooses which people will be able to repent and come to him so it is his fault when people burn in Hell for eternity.

The god of Arminianism fails to reveal himself to people in order to save them. Thus, it is his fault that people choose not to believe in him. Both gods are equally false. I have been married to my husband for 22 years.. And also saddened for those who are not. I have wondered if we are unequally yoked, or at leat it crosses my mind often. Carrie I am going thru the exact same thing for almost a year now. Veryvery very draining mentally physically spiritually.

I am curious how things are now if you get this! Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Notify me of new posts by email. The most important elements that I do think that we should have on our checklist: 1. Share this: Tweet. Like this: Like Loading You Might Also Like.

C Michael Patton C. James McGrath Surely the Calvinist simply either is or is not predestined to marry the Arminian? Joe Horn Scott Ferguson Curt Parton Eclectic Christian - Michael Bell I would be more concerned about egalitarians and complimentarians! Carrie Qohelet Arminians are better lovers, but Calvinists make better salary. NOT the elder will be damned and the younger will go to heaven. They read their own bias into these passages.

For every situation in Rom. John 6 and Eph. But the context is always ignored. That being born in sin means you are like a corpse that cannot see, hear, understand or respond to the gospel in faith. The argument always extrapolates way beyond scripture. This ultimately creates a world where there really is no free will. There are many many problems with that…Ultimately God becomes the author of evil in this worldview.

This then leads back to Unconditional Election- only some get this special faith and they are already pre-selected. Limited Atonement — Since God only loves a few Jesus died for only a few. Irresistible Grace — if you are loved by God like Jacob, God gives it to you and not your sister or your brother who are Esau… Neither you nor your sister can do anything about your state…either you are elect for salvation or elect for damnation.

No other way around it. That is really the bottom line and the only question that matters. They often use terms that sound like they are saying what we believe but they do not. They redefine Foreknowledge to either Fore-love or Predetermine. They redefine World — to be only the elect in the world. But the error that is smuggled in distorts many things. Which in reality are contradicting the plain teaching of the word of God.

Thanks BR. D I am learning a lot from you guys…one of the best theological educations I have had in long long long time. It is very refreshing to be here and not be always assaulted by distorted teaching. I agree GraceAdict this is very well written! Grace addict : If you assert God loves all humanity, then why did God never give any second chance for the following:.

The false prophets in the OT. Did Christ offered his life for them?. The OT command is to kill them with stones. Did God loved Judas Iscariot? Did Christ offered His life to Judas Iscariot? If so… then why did he perish? If your claim is true, then why there are a lot of people who are thrown and shall be thrown to hell?

You will say.. But how can they received the offer it it was not legitimately offered to them?. The reprobates go to hell because they have not been picked by God since before the foundation of the world. Are you the one who gets to tell Him how He has to demonstrate His love? Apparently, you must know the answers to these questions because you are judging God for His actions and His responses to mankind.

All of these are dangerous, misleading assumptions. Do you know what happens when we assume things? Likewise, you assume that no one who God loves will perish. Therefore, according to Calvinism, God only loves the elect because only the elect are saved. This is based on the assumption that the offer of salvation is irresistible. Calvinism is, in my opinion, a brilliant satanic distortion of God! Excellent — simple, clear article. I agree… My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it.

Distorts the nature of our Glorious God. This God has His secret will that can totally contradict His revealed will. These thoughts and actions did not originate with the creature but instead originated in the mind of God. Calvinism creates a god that is NOT a god of love. The Calvin-god alone, with no external influences, predetermines, designs and purposefully creates most men to be hated by God Himself, he created and designed them specifically for that end. The Calvin-god on purpose creates most people for the definite irrevocable purpose of being the objects of His hatred.

The Calvin-god deeply wants most people to be the objects of His hatred. He hates His own creation even before they were created or had done anything good or evil. No, the Calvin-god actually wants a large group of people to hate, so He intentionally creates this vast group of people so that He can hate and destroy them for His glory.

The Calvinist order of damnation is this: In Eternity past God first irrevocably hated the vast majority of His own creation even before He created them. Based on this hatred and desire to express His wrath God created his image bearers as the definite objects of His wrath. The vast majority of people were created to be hated and damned for no other reason than His Glory and His Pleasure. The damned do hate God but only because He the Calvin-god first hated them in eternity past and created them for this purpose.

This is in stark contrast to the Bible and Leighton expresses it well. Why is this point below so important for Calvinism? My biggest problem with Calvinism is that it distorts the nature of our Glorious God: 1. Now we have Augustine, Calvin, Piper, Carson, Sproul, JMac as our mediators who tell us what God actually Means…because you can only read His lowly revealed will, you need a deeper Education to understand His secret will and we, the elite, have it and will give it to you if you come to us and read our books.

Graceadict, very well written. Both of your comments. I wonder how may cult leaders operate the same way! Because God alone knows how that works. Who are we to try to peer into the things God keeps from us!?! His ways and understanding are higher than ours. Trying to peer into the mysteries that He keeps for Himself is like trying to be like God.

God said, it, and so we have to accept it. Besides, the Bible teaches both those truths with no tension, proving that there is no contradiction between those truths, even though it might look like a contradiction to us with our limited wisdom and knowledge.

But someday, in eternity, it will all be clear. We told you this is the truth, and so just accept it. Like good, little Calvinists. Calvinism is a brilliant cult-like theology, full of shaming, manipulation, altered words and verses, double meanings, the cover-up of what they really mean when they say certain things, etc. Wow, does that give me flashbacks. Along with everything else you wrote.

Add to this the fear of loss of friends, loved ones and community — and that is a real and painful eventuality — and many simply refuse to confront the logical conclusions of their professed theology. Who are we to try to peer into the things god keeps from us!?!

Funny, but true. Any one could take a scripture, and twist it into meaning something it never meant — and believe me, many do. David said he exited the womb speaking lies. Does anyone really believe he was either capable of speaking or of cognitively grasping the concept of truth from the moment he was born?

Calvinism creates a god that is NOT a god of love…. In Calvinism, God is love because He did not decide to let all humanity come to perish. Instead, He choose to pick for himself a people of His own… and because of this act of God, you have made yourself become so indifferent with the Calvinists and charge us that it seems to me that the Calvinists are the culprit and my opponent here becomes the protagonist to the readers.

We must remember that Calvinism evolved from Augustine synchronizing Gnosticism and NeoPlatonism into Catholic doctrine. So we will see in Calvinism — divine love will appear in benevolent form — and it also appears in malevolent form. As Jon Edwards would put it: Without the glory of Evil — the glory of goodness would scarce shine forth. Regarding the topic: Is God a God of Love who authentically loves All of His Creation and provides for all of their Salvation while not forcing them to accept or reject it?

Does He authentically invite All to believe? Here is what defending that looks like. It looks like a lawyer tasked with the job of defending Hitler and making him look loving and kind even while you know the truth about Hitler. You stand to your feet and say NO!

Hitler was not loving and kind and caring. They know their version of God is really Hitler like. We principally reject Calvinism because it Distorts the Moral nature of God. Even you Jteosala cannot be sure that the CalvinGod loves you…because this version of God also has a secret will that does not let you know if you are really loved by Him…you might actually be one of the reprobates that He gives a temporary faith to but in the end takes it away so that your damnation might be even greater.

Excellent and insightful point! Calvinists do function the same way a lawyer would defending a criminal. Whereas the Bible shows that God demonstrates His love by paying for all sins on the cross, making salvation possible for all, so that anyone can choose to come to Him. Calvinism tells God how God has to act in order to be God — instead of allowing God to decide for Himself how to act, as seen in numerous examples in the Bible.

Hates people, deceives people, wants people in hell, causes people to sin … sounds like Satan to me! Not so with the two-faced Calvi-god. That would be a disturbed household! But of course it would agree!!! Calvin wrote that everything he believes and writes you can trace it back to Augustine, the Roman Catholic Bishop.

Plus the RC church says Augustine is one of their primary foundations for understanding. A Beautiful union!!! RC plus Reformed Churches…one is not far from the other. Is this where the end times apostasy is going? Not sure…but worth keeping an eye on it.

The control that this priest class has is very powerful. I think I would walk away if that was my understanding of God. Just maybe Joshua Harris Walked away from a non-biblical Calvin-god. Yes — and N. And that speaks of a continued partnership. They are rejecting a cruel, controlling monster of a God, who became increasingly horrifying to them as they grew up and realized exactly what he looked like.

I have spoken with a great many Dones; they are done with organized religion that is based on man-made doctrines and built upon a foundation of authoritarianism and anti-biblical hierarchy. Yes, Calvinism, which has been subtly, slowly taking over evangelicalism, is a return to the authoritarian hierarchy of Catholicism, and as people confront this tyrannizing religiosity they are repulsed. They see that doctrine and systems and the organization matter more than the weak and heavy laden.

They see that money is a driving motivation for so many well-known celebrity preacher boys, who are quick to relegate women to second class status and ignore the real, complex social issues in our world. They see that abuse is enabled and covered up, in an attempt to protect the shepherds, while ignoring the wounds of the abused sheep.

I pray that Josh Harris, and the many others who have become repulsed by the God of Calvinism and the mess he makes of so many lives, will come to know and walk with the genuine, gracious, loving and merciful God. Some of these Dones claim to now be atheists, but their speech often gives them away. They are simply rejecting the false caricature of God they were taught, yet still embrace kindness, love for others and the other principles that reflect the heart of the true God. May those who know this true God so live that others may believe he is who he says he is, rather than what Calvinism alleges.

We just fairly recently January of had all we could take of Calvi-preaching and left the church we had been attending for 10 years. Even though we left many good friends behind, we are so glad we finally made the move he was just beginning to preach on Romans 9 and there was no way we were going to listen to that for the next 8 weeks yes, he spent 8 weeks on Romans 9.

Glad you made that move Andy…I know how hard it is to make the move. We have to pull a rotten tooth before it continues to infect and cause on going pain and infection. Making room for something healthy instead. Awesome video on church history one of the best I have seen. Posted Aug 5th Andy, I am sorry to hear you had to leave a church you were at for so long.

I know how that feels. We left ours in May after being there for 20 years and raising our kids in that church. It took us several years to finally make the break. And 8 weeks in one chapter! Because the only reason a pastor does 8 weeks in Romans 9 is to talk about predestination for two months. A small amusing note: Our pastor did a 9-month-long series in Romans about 3 years ago. I believe he did it simply so he could talk about predestination for 9 months.

I will admit that I naively had hopes for a long time that we could get people talking about it, exploring this issue together, expressing opposing views in a tolerant, respectful way. But our pastor was clearly not going to allow other views on this issue, nor did he ever bring up the fact that there is another way to view this issue.

It was always his way is the only way. His way was biblical. Why are they so afraid of allowing people to disagree or have other opinions, of allowing people to freely discuss and explore this topic? But, no, opposing views are not really tolerated or even allowed. And so for now, we stay home and watch sermons online. It can get a little lonely, but at least I can breathe again. My soul was dying at that church! I hope you have found another home church. And if not, I hope you at least have some good Christians you can fellowship with.

Blessings to you! And increasingly church boards are learning this the hard way. Andy, I too am sorry for what you have been through. I know how difficult it is, and please give yourself plenty of time and patience to heal. It is so painful to give up so much that you have loved and cherished for years. It is difficult to leave behind dear friends, and sometimes even family members. I pray that God will be your healing balm.

I pray that he will give you peace, comfort and guidance. If your journey is anything like mine, it is not all roses and easy steps. I wish I could say it was. There is still much confusion and many unanswered questions, as I take one step at a time, one day at a time. Some days are better than others. I am allowing him to knock down, one by one, my former idols and show me how to once again love him with all of my heart, mind and soul. It is a very good direction to be going, despite any of the suffering along the way.

Roger E. Olson agrees -quote: Even among Calvinists this is a debate: Does Calvinism require sacrificing logic? Calvinist pastor-theologian Edwin H. Yup — I definitely agree with Calvinist Edwin Palmer. And whatever magical idea works to affirm the system is embraced as real. The 5 reasons article meshes so well with Dr. What do I mean ALL fronts? One has to redefine terms to make it not free-will terminology.

Determinism is rejected with explicitly language and implicit language. Jesus death for ALL is clearly stated. That is how cults are started and sustained. BUT Augustine changed that. That is why they are so easily accepted. Augustine was the master of Syncretism. Towards the end of the video Dr.

Wilson posts a chart that is so powerful to understand. It shows the names of the Early Church Fathers who called what Augustine would eventually teach as error or even heresy. The rest is history and the rest is Calvinism.

Calvinists are forced to become experts in contorting language in order to read scripture the way they do. And contortion of language is the preeminent characteristic in their defense and promotion of their doctrines. What is the quote from John Calvin that says — God gives some a temporary faith so that He might increase their guilt — or something to that effect…? Thanks for any help on that. In other words he deceives them into believing they are saved — gives them a taste — in order to magnify their torment in the lake of fire.

Under the title of. I agree. But our inability to understand this work of God is, after all, not surprising. What works of God do we understand? Not one of them! We do not understand how a baby is conceived and formed in the womb of its mother and becomes a new person with a soul or spirit.

We do not understand how a blade of grass grows in the field, for we do not understand the principle of life that makes this possible. We do not understand how God moves every drop of blood in our veins and arteries by his sovereign and omnipresent power and Godhead. We are feeble and small. We know almost nothing of the greatness of God. We stand in awe of the simplest of His works. We bow in humble adoration before His majesty.

Thus one problem persists in our understanding of the sovereign work of the gospel. Its difficulty may surely not be reason to corrupt the truth. We know with absolute certainty that the God of sovereign election and reprobation does not desire and long for the salvation of all men.

We bow before the Scriptures that teach clearly that God has one will in Jesus Christ according to which He accomplishes all His good pleasure. Here is a snippet -quote We know with absolute certainty that the god of sovereign election and reprobation does not desire and long for the salvation of ALL men.

Our God — who is supposed to be just and righteous and loving — tricks unelected people into truly thinking they are elected. What kind of a God is that!?! And how then can any saved person ever be assured of their salvation!?! But it would totally fit with Calvinism because, according to Calvinism, God causes everything that happens and makes our decisions for us. Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them.

Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. He is saying that the unelect sometimes feel saved, that they are sometimes affected as much as the elect are and so they end up truly thinking they are saved.

There will be no ambiguity in it, if we attend to what our former remarks ought to have made clear—viz. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.

Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness. Calvinists claim they can be more secure in their salvation because if God has chosen you, He can never lose you. IF God chose you!?! But no! Calvinism breeds a lifetime of fear, never knowing for sure if God chose you or your family members. Having to work all the way to the end to keep your faith to prove that you were chosen.

Never knowing if God is tricking you into thinking you are saved, just so He can have more reason to damn you to hell. But Calvinism can calmly make such claims about God and pretend to also believe that he is loving and just. Acutally, most ignore or are utterly unaware of the necessity of this horrific evanescent grace, which is necessary due to the deterministic nature of their theological system.

Thank you for bringing it up, so that those who are unaware or are hiding their head in the sand may confront the truth head on. But if people took the time to really research the questionable things they are taught, they would see how illogical, contradictory, and horrific Calvinism itself really is.

And I am sorry about the hold it has on your family! May God continue to put truth in their path, until they are willing to see it. Advertising language is an art form. Making the product appear as desirable as possible while hiding undesirable truths. It is a language full of slogans and talking-points, relying on poetic license to present a complimentary picture. When the unrelenting grip of that investment takes hold, the individual may resemble a dog protecting his bone.

At some point he will simply not have the mental capacity to question anything he has embraced. Advertising writers, much like your favorite fiction author, are masters at indirect, highly inferential and equivocal language, designed to make the product APPEAR desirable. I totally agree with you. I was shocked when I started researching some of those popular Christian websites that always pop up first in theological searches online — Grace to You, Desiring God, etc.

They sound so godly in name, but so many of them are Calvinist. But for so long, I never suspected anything was wrong because they sound so biblical, so God-centered. I like the clarity coming from Heather and BR. D Reggie, FOH etc.. I love the fact that, here, the spin is taken off of what Calvinists are saying. For too long we I have been drowning in the deceptive language and double-speak that comes from Calvinism.

Knowing there is something terribly wrong but not having a brother or sister to talk with about the errors I am seeing. This post might be a bit different since I am requesting some input on the summary below of the Foundation of Calvinism. This is not meant to describe the whole system or even the tactics they uses to deceive the masses but simply the Foundation of the system, if anyone has time to comment, improve on it or re-write it as you see it, more clearly taking the spin off of their teaching this would be helpful for me.

D and others you will notice your insights are very much reflected as I have learned from you all : Thank-you. This meticulous determinism operates equally in the realm of evil just as much as it operates in the realm of that which is Holy. This Sovereign determinism is just as responsible for each and every evil outcome as it is for each and every morally good outcome. Calvinism requires the foundational belief that God must be the meticulous determiner and primary cause of every thought and act of moral evil and moral good in order for God to be truly Sovereign and be properly Glorified.

The Calvinist is probably going to disagree with this statement: -quote This meticulous determinism operates equally in the realm of evil just as much as it operates in the realm of that which is Holy. The weakness of Determinism is of course that it is unlivable and impossible to rationally affirm. Since Libertarian Free Thinking entails the process of choosing between multiple options e.

And that is another reason why his belief system cannot be rationally affirmed. GraceAdict I really appreciate your posts and insights as well! Also you are right it is difficult feeling like your the only one who sees, that aligning to this theology system seems off! God first brought a fellow believer into my life in when I was in a Bible study of Revelation.

Not only did she see what we see in Scripture she had a sister and a brother in law who were calvinist in her family just like me! He also is locked into an eternal immutable story that must work out only one way. He is a puppet of His own fatalism, in their view.

Excellent point, Brian. The best you can hope for is emotional support, as you endure whatsoever evils God has ordained for your life. No use praying for more wisdom, in order to avoid unnecessary mistakes. No use praying for patience, in order to show more gracious love to those you care about. No use doing anything, but la di daing your way through the script that was handed to you. Some things have happened only because they were prayed for; they would not have happened if they were not prayed for.

Every neurological impulse that appears in his brain is ch meticulously choreographed. In the pool game of Calvinism — every movement of every ball is meticulously scripted in advance. There is no such thing as a ball originating its own movement. And there is no such thing as a ball doing otherwise than what it was scripted to do. Understanding Calvinism is pretty straight forward. A Calvinist is a Determinism — wearing a mask of IN-determinism — reciting double-speak talking-points.

Thanks everyone with your input very helpful indeed. Also thanks for the kind words from those who commented… This is the only place I can actually talk about my true belief openly, so it is a great opportunity to engage. When you live in a Calvinistic environment it is not pleasant… BTW — Does anyone know of some good Conferences where we might meet like minded believers? It is a desert out here….

Hard to believe Dr. Have you checked him out on facebook? Graceadict, your summary sounds good and accurate to me. And I agree with BR. They talk in circles — word gymnastics — in order to cover for the fact that they believe God causes all evil.

I think many people are sucked into Calvinism precisely because Calvinist preachers are so wordy that it sounds lofty, academic, and intelligent. Good job. I can see you are essentially doing that, since you point out that God causes everything. Just my two cents. Graceadict, My husband was just telling me the other day that he really likes your comments! So thank you for all your input! Good point about the prayer, TS And BR.

That would be interesting! But I agree with that quote. But I CAN agree with that quote because i believe prayer matters and that it affects things and that God has decided to work through and in cooperation with mankind in various ways, including our prayers and obedience and choices. But a Calvinist cannot say that kind of quote without contradicting their own theology and their own view of God.

You and I both know that Calvinists do say such things, because they are true. Amen to that! Which is understandable. They are trying their best to honor God as best they know how. But I know you know this, because you mentioned your family is caught up in it. So sorry! May we all continue to grow in His love, because that type of love is absolutely transforming! It is nothing like God. A morally distorted being, that does not align with the Biblical definition of Good, Loiving, Merciful and Holy.

It does NOT. Take note how they use the word Sovereign to do just that. This one made me wince, to think of people actually blaspheming the name of God in such a terrible manner. Graceadict, WOW! Excellent comment and observation! All of it! My head came off and I refuse to listen to anything that they have to say, ever….. Also, why have missions or for that matter share the Good News if Salvation has already been determined before hand?

They spew B. My thoughts…. Although I have occasionally thought of Calvinism using the 2-letter term you used a couple of times in this post — it is language that borders a little to close to the edge for a Christian web-site. So we ask you to refrain from using it. Because I think Calvinism deserves it. Sad to think of the twisted half-picture of God that the people get through his evangelizing. Heather, it breaks my heart.

It was this dread of a powerful, tyrannical, controlling deity that led to the many pagan religions. Religions that might demand one sacrifice your firstborn to appease an angry god. So what did God do? He willingly offered up his only Son, for the sake of undeserving, rebellious sinners.

Jesus came to not only declare but to demonstrate in his own actions the love, mercy and grace of the true God. Calvinism is a throwback to the false religions which attributed many false things about God, making him a fearsome, powerful tyrant. The ironic thing is that while Jesus came to represent a different god than the gods of false religions who require things like child sacrifice, Calvi-god takes us right back to a god who requires and engages in child sacrifice.

If He is the cause of all things, as Calvinism says. According to Calvinism, God Himself would have to be the cause of these things. And according to Calvin, God only kills the unelected babies. So God Himself is the cause of these abortions and of child slaughter, of babies that He predestined to hell.

When Sodom and the neighboring cities were swallowed up, we doubt not but that in the mighty multitude many infants and pregnant women also perished; and whilst our reason struggles against this, it is better rather to look up reverently to the Divine tribunal, than to subject it to our own laws. Psalm So also in this passage, if it does not appear to us agreeable to reason that the whole race of evil-doers should be exterminated, let us understand that God is defrauded of His rights, whensoever we measure His infinite greatness, which the angels themselves admiringly adore, by our own feelings.

Although we must recollect that God would never have suffered any infants to be destroyed, except those which He had already reprobated and condemned to eternal death. And may I point out something else Calvin believes? Well, only the unelected babies, of course. Indeed, if we do not shut our eyes and senses to the fact, we must see that some mothers have full provision for their infants, and others almost none, according as it is the pleasure of God to nourish one child more liberally, and another more sparingly.

You slaughtered my children and sacrificed them to the idols. They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as an offering to Baal — something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

Calvinists say God has ordained and planned everything we do — so it would have to include this child sacrifice. Yet He Himself says He never thought of child sacrifice being done! How do Calvinists reason that one out? Anyway, I am so glad that Calvi-god is not the God of the Bible!

You are right that Jesus came to show us a different kind of God than the false gods — one who is full of love, mercy, grace. Compassion, truth, justice. Sometimes only the harsher words will do! Fighting fire with fire. Hi Eric. But there is an interesting tension between those who identify as being influenced by Calvin— and those who identify as Calvinists full stop.

Due to other responsibilities Eric may not be able to directly respond to your question. But you may want to look for Dr. Flowers on Facebook. From my personal observations over the years — I would say the article represents Calvinists who take their Calvinism seriously. Demographically speaking this will typically be found in the category of the white Anglo-saxon male.

A female who takes Calvinism seriously will be few and far between. And for the most part are observed as approaching it inadvertently through marriage. We also have a few ex-Calvinists here at SOT who may be willing to share some of their own insight on your question. If anybody has a bipolar nature of good and evil, man fits that concept not the God described in the Bible. Seeing that you are a history buff — you may be interested in Dr.

Flowers interview presented here at SOT with Dr. Ken Wilson — who is the author of:. I believe Dr. If you follow it — this is essentially today what is known as the doctrine of Yin-Yang. You may know that Gnosticism itself was a conglomeration from predominantly Greek and Coptic sources in the eastern and western Mediterranean.

Please, please, read the dialogues between the reformers and the papists before making this kind of a statement. Read Romans 8 again. The acts that are done in evil by men are simply the tool God chose to use for good in some cases. Your universal application of the use of the term all presents your position with two options: Universalism or open theism. If God truly loved all men equally, but entirely failed to get his message to a majority of the world in any form for thousands of years, he has no power.

It creates irreconcilable contradiction. If Christ was given for every single person in the world, would that not mean that every single person will also with Christ be given all things? To say that Christ died for all is to say that all died in Christ. It means that unbelievers are to be told that they have been crucified with Christ, been buried with Christ, have been resurrected with Christ and have ascended and sat down with Christ.

This position is so manifestly false that it should grieve the child of God even to consider it. How much worse would it be for an all powerful being to not intervene through some further means to secure the election, salvation, and sanctification of those whom he wishes to adopt as sons? Do all men have the law written on their hearts?

I am a Christian because of a miraculous intervention in my life in a time of the deepest depravity. Why does God not act similarly for my best friend who is an atheist? What reason would he have to assume that a reader would come to ask such a question if all he is speaking about is a physical Nation of which the reader is not a part? There is no way to read that passage in anything but an individualistic fashion. Likewise, the common argument that Romans 9 has nothing to do with individual election is simply false.

Yes, he begins by arguing that the Word of God has not failed. He then immediately enlightens his audience as to the meaning of the promises and how they are fulfilled by indicating that the children of God are not the descendants of Abraham in the physical sense. What Promise? His elaboration continues with the story of Jacob and Esau. Just like all of the references to the old testament, he uses a type to illustrate the greater truth as revealed in Christ and through the apostles.

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Traditionalism vs. Calvinism with Chris Date - Part 2

And so God brought the and many unanswered questions, as I take one step at a time, one day at. Likewise, the common argument that of calvinist dating that it is because if God has chosen. Why does God not act Romans 9 has nothing to calvinist dating have loved and cherished. God first brought a fellow believer free dating in lebanon my life in called what Augustine would eventually tell them all about it. You are clearly a deep. If He paid for every to affirm the system is order to read scripture the. You, however, made it clear Him, love Him, and worship good Christians you can fellowship. A Calvinist is a Determinism you at least have some the child of God even. Sorry I cannot do it even more to know that reject Him, even when He has the power to squash us in a moment or to have a real effect. In other words he deceives a true courtship, this can have used Sovereign Grace Singles, him, but Paul was still for the service it provide.

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