Before either, marriages were arranged by parents on the basis of practical considerations. Courtship was born; and a formal affair it was. Generally taking place in the home of the woman, where she was safe and carefully watched over by her family, the suitor pursued feminine affections through conversation, wit, and written messages. In the late-nineteenth century courtship morphed into dating as poorer women who had no parlor in which to chat with a beau began to meet with men in public places.
Gradually, public dating became the norm, desi red by rich and poor alike. With this change, the balance of power shifted away from the female—who was now out of the protection of her home—to the male—who was usually paying for the socialization. The in volvement of parents was minimized. Over time, temporary romantic thrill rather than level-headed planning for marriage became central to the experience. A sensible yet spiritual approach calls for the cultivation of a carefully reigned-in form of affection that neither ignores nor prematurely expends the romantic urges.
But can someone please come up with a new name for it? I keep seeing men in tights and ladies in pointed hats! Seriously, courtship has gained popularity of late among Christian young people. Sweeping through churches, high schools, and college campuses, the c ourtship revolution has begun to put the brakes on romantic attachment outside of marriage. I found Jesus at 19, after a high school career of looking for love in all the wrong places.
Determined never to stray again, I embraced the idea of courtship with gusto, and shortly after began my own courtship with Michael. Dating as it is practiced today releases that fire of passion prematurely. They have it hard! For one thing, delaying marria ge into the late 20s and 30s has put young adults in the position of needing to restrain their urges for longer and longer periods of time.
This is no small task. One step toward compromise can create an almost irresistible momentum. One study showed a correlation between a high school crush and a lifelong tendency toward depression. When the fire of passion burns outside of the boundaries of marriage, it leaves its troublesome legacy behind. The very fire that God intended to bring life brings destruction when not managed properly. Principles Fortunately, the Bible is a life manual that expounds principles for conducting romantic relationships.
Especially useful for identifying these principles is the story of Isaac and Rebekah. Significantly, it is the one recorded Old Testament marriage in which there was no polygamy. The partners and their families traced the unmistakable hand of God and were united in marriage.
It was a simple, elegant story of divine principles operating upon two people within the framework of custom and culture. The same is possible today. The Bible provides no legitimate examples of romantic intimacy outside of marriage. Contrast that with the fact that most movies and television feature romantic and sexual drama.
The world is obsessed with attraction and lust, but the Word says much more about how to cultivate love within the confines of a marriage commitment. The takeaway lesson for us is that we should screen and manage our attractions by the criterion of who we could be happy with on a long-term basis. Remember Boundaries. As counterintuitive as it seems, love has boundaries. All life has structure and form. Without law, without boundaries, there is only anarchy and ultimate death. His boundaries for human sexual passion limit its expression to heterosexual marriage.
Rarely is an unbelieving spouse converted. Typically, the believer compromises his or her faith or lives in constant conflict. God in His mercy would spare us this dilemma. Consider the Big Picture. Marriage is not just a union between two individuals; two families unite at the altar. Feel free to ask her. No doubt she's well versed in the subjects, but she may be reluctant to answer these questions if she really likes you back. We're used to being considered strange, weird or different by non-Adventists.
True, I am from California. But I hear stories of SDAs in other parts of the country who are very mean to homosexuals and are also a little racist or sexist. It is sad to hear those stories of people within the same religion. And agree you will find a mixed bag of different SDAs, depending on where you are, how old you are, what generation, your upbringing, ect. She is absolutely wonderful. Right now she is lying next to me and I am showing her Reddit for the first time.
It was very amusing for both of us when I showed her this subreddit and your post was at the top. We figured we are obligated to chime in with our two cents. First off, it drives me absolutely fucking bonkers that she believes the Earth is only 6, years old! I do find myself trying to convince her every now and then in joking, fun conversations. But overall, I am comfortable in the fact that I know that I am right she is laughing at me right now , and she is comfortable knowing that she is right too.
I have always been open to attending services with her I am a casual Catholic so attending services is nothing new to me. Not a big deal to me whatsoever. I was upfront from the beginning that I will never convert and she is ok with that her parents, however, are not as keen on that idea but seem to be at least understanding about it.
They are very nice people, and they seem to like me just fine. They definitely are community-oriented among their church members. They do many activities together which I have no issue participating in. Just as she would hang out with my friends I am hanging out with hers. Our differences do show every now and then, but we both work through them as best we can. We both understand there will be many compromises involved. I think our differences worry her more than me, but we are simply taking it one day at a time.
She thinks our difference in beliefs might separate us down the road. She thinks it is possible I may stop working hard at our relationship because I'll eventually think she's crazy her words, not mine. I, personally, can tell you that I highly doubt that will happen. I chalk it up to me being her first non-SDA boyfriend and she's still learning the territory. So obviously, she's much more nervous than me and is still navigating uncharted waters.
I can't predict the future with us though, but I can tell you we are absolutely having a great time together right now. We love being with each other and we hope that continues for a very long time. Hope this gave you a little more insight. Feel free to PM me with any more specific questions you're curious about. We wish you the best of luck with your situation! They are generally accepting, but they will see it as an opportunity to try and bring you into the church.
Expect them to invite you to church a lot. For the second question it varies a lot. There are people in the church who are very conservative and other that are more liberal. But to be safe most take things very literal. But there are many open minded people in the church. For scientific findings it also varies. Some will say the earth was made in 6 literal 24 hour days with the 7th as rest. But I know people, myself included, who think a day represents like thousands of years.
I debate this with many people in the church. Since none of us were around that time, no one can really know for sure. I have grown up adventist, and have met different people within the church with different views on this. I would not consider myself the goody goody adventist. And i don't necessarily agree with all of the doctrines of the church, but I do go to church almost every Saturday. My suggestion would be to ask her. Yet others are more open minded and believe differently. Not all SDAs believe in the fairly tale that the earth is only years old.
I am more opened minded because when it comes down to it, God still created earth. Whether it took 6 days or years. I'm really sorry you got caught up with someone so religious. I'm sad to say I have never heard of this brand of crazy. I truly wish you the best though. Religious people can be WAY out there, so make sure you don't get forced into something that's not what you want.
Not asking you, haha! Just wondering how someone who is so angry at religious people ended up in the SDA subreddit. I'm not angry at religious people at all. In fact I have nothing against religion. It's just that the frequency of religious people being insane is really disturbing. First off, thought you were OP, so I guess I was asking you. That said, I was being pretty dismissive of you in those earlier comments, my apologies for that.
Basically, I was wondering how you ended up in such an obscure subreddit when you had never heard of SDA's before, kind of random, haha. Anyway, I've got a couple of thoughts in response to your comments. First of all, I take issue with your sweeping generalizations of religious people. For the most part, religious people - like everybody else - are just regular people doing their best here in the world.
So this is an interesting point, and one I'm a bit conflicted about. First of all let me acknowledge that yes, a lot of evil has been done in the name of Christianity, and it is unfortunately still happening see gay marriage etc. I'm not trying to minimize or excuse the horrible things done in the name of Christianity, but rather point out that I don't think the reason for all that violence necessarily is Christianity, but rather greedy, powerful old guys.
Oh well, I don't know everything, and I'm tired, so I'm gonna call it a day. It just kinda rubbed me the wrong way that you popped in here, made sweeping generalizations about us, and called us all crazy. People are people buddy. Anyway, have a good evening. Hope your doing well. When I said religious people I meant it as an umbrella over all religions, not just Christianity. I've had so much experience in a variety of different churches, both Christian and non Christian across the country and around the world.
Do I think all religious people are like that? Heck no I don't. One of my aunts on my mothers side figured it out. She is very respectful of others, doesn't talk crap, and asks questions when other people would make assumptions. Just to be clear, that's 1 out of 7 siblings. Considering the extremely small sample size and the fact that they all are from the same family I think the percentage is higher than the reality.
That said, you were right about one point. I admit it was a little stupid for me to join in on the conversation here not knowing what SDA was. I have looked into and don't really see a significant different between SDA and your typical Protestant church. I'm new to reddit and just assumed it was one of those abbreviations I just haven't learned yet ie:TIL. One thing about the human race, is that we all seem to have tendencies that go downwards.
It takes something to check us to stop us going further. I don't think a faith in God is the only anchor to have, that can stop us sliding in bad directions, but I do think that it's by far the best anchor. Or maybe you could look to yourself. Taking responsibility for your life and actions should be a human thing, not a religious one. God or not, needing to rely on something to keep you "anchored" just shows a person has some deficit in their life, and I doubt it's religion or God. Again it's just my opinion.
By that you mean that anchor you have is the one you learnt growing up, probably from your parents, of being responsible and getting things done properly. Which is a fine anchor. But under what strains can it hold? What has been the hardest point in your life, and do you recognise the strain on that anchor in that hardest time?
They're called anchors because they stop us drifting from a set of principles, but what if a storm comes? There have been scientific experiments of certain psychological studies which have shown that most people don't have very strong anchors in regards to certain ways of thinking and acting towards others.
Normal, nice people have found themselves doing potentially unspeakable things towards others. And this has happened constantly throughout history in all corners of the world. There are the Germans of Nazi Germany. There are the mass suicides led by Jim Jones in Guyana, and then plenty of others. You can make the argument that these extreme examples don't happen everyday, but a storm of some kind comes to everyone. It's fair enough to have your own ideas of what will keep you safe when those things happen.
Those who are living in Christ when this happens are able to enter the kingdom. The Heavenly Sanctuary is considered the heavenly model for the Old Testament sanctuaries. What Israelite priests did in those sanctuaries is what Christ is now doing for us.
Among the early leaders of the Seventh Day Adventist church was Ellen White, whose writings stemmed from her gift of prophecy. Not that it is necessary in order to make known to God what we are, but in order to enable us to receive Him. Her book has been published in more than languages. According to the 28 Fundamental Beliefs, the wages of sin is death, but God will give eternal life to his followers. Until Christ returns, death is an unconscious state for all people.
For the Lord, himself will come down from heaven … After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Sleep for death is an oft-used metaphor in the bible for death, and Adventists believe that eternal life will come to believers when Jesus returns.
Like other Christian denominations, Seventh Day Adventists hold to the belief that Jesus is returning. At that time, the righteous dead will be resurrected and taken to heaven. It does, however, say in their doctrine that many events that precede the Second Coming have fulfilled prophecy , meaning the return of Jesus is soon.
For that reason, they believe in being constantly ready. Many Adventists ascribe to a vegetarian or plant-based diet. They take this direction from scripture, which says God gave nuts, grains, and herbs as nourishment. Because of this diet, many experts have said Seventh Day Adventists can live an average of 10 years longer than most Americans.
In a study from Loma Linda University, scientists found that Adventists can die of cancer, stroke or heart disease, but the age at which those diseases and illnesses are diagnosed is much later because of their healthy lifestyle and resting on the Sabbath. In addition to a plant-based diet, many churches also forbid alcohol and tobacco. Adventists believe that hell is not an eternity of suffering and torture.
Instead, sinners and unbelievers will ultimately die for eternity. Most Adventists believe some variant of annihilationism, which says that after final judgment, all unbelievers will be destroyed rather than suffering in hell. In this belief, the Old Testament and New Testament say that the final end for nonbelievers is total extinction. For example, in Romans, Paul describes hell as a final punishment, where the wicked die, perish or are destroyed. With some 19 million members and 82, churches, Seventh Day Adventists follow a hierarchal network.
The General Conference oversees the global ministry of the church. The General Conference is also responsible for the spiritual development of the church. It is headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland. The entire structure reflects a democratic process of election and formation.
Many may say that seventh-day with someone everyone seventh Adventist is like being unequally yoked. But, as I think about our partnership, I know that we pull together. Make sure your comments are germane to the topic; be concise in your reply; demonstrate respect for people and ideas rules you agree or disagree with them; and limit yourself to one comment per article, unless the author seventh the article about engages you in further conversation.
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What practical guidance is the seventh-day adventism. Seventh day adventist dating online Are a man half your age, personals ads and friendships through chat. Singles online. This has always been one of the parts of the Bible which I don't really like because I always assumed that marriage was so much more than the sex though it is an important part. Yet Paul didn't seem to treat marriage with the…respect that I thought it deserved when it came to the "better to marry than burn" statement.
Also, I really don't know what the church is going to do with girls trying to be pastors. I have several female friends studying in the ministry now who plan on going knuckle to knuckle with the conference on this issue, and I myself am conflicted about if those particular verses still apply.
Oakwood as a school is still pretty conservative on the issue, though there is a female associate pastor at the church. I think you are so right. What seems to also come out of the blog and comments is that the cost of not facing these deeper questions will perhaps be just as high. Female graduates going "knuckle to knucle with the Conference, people walking away, conflict between theological factions etc etc.
Perhaps the growing ferment within the ranks on these things will lead to an "Arab Spring" within Adventism. He makes some excellent points against Biblicism which is our traditional position. I suspect many of our theologians would concur with him on the problems, but I suspect everyone — administrators, theologians and informed laymen — are somewhat scared by the question "what else is there?
If we don't go with 'the Bible alone' a liberal Christian invention, embraced whole-heartedly by fundamentalism and a literal understanding thereof, can we maintain a belief in the Bible as being inspired by God and the foundation of the Chrisitan faith? I believe we can, and a lot of work has been done in different relatively conservative denominations to find a way of accepting the Bible as it is not inerrant, no verbal inspiration, clearly a mixture of the human and the divine — all things we have accepted for most of our history but still seeing it as the word of God to us.
But it leaves the Bible being less clear on many issues than we have asserted, and I suspect that that scares the pants off many. If we are the true church because we have the truth — if not all truth, at least far more than anyone else — then what happens if we admit that there are other answers just as biblical, and perhaps just as right?
We have reluctantly come to that conclusion on the human nature of Christ, but what if that is true of other equally important issues, or even lesser issues? What if there is no one clear, unambiguous teaching on marriage, or on sex in general?
For a church where 'everything decently and in order' is as important as 'what will the neighbours think? I wonder if Mr. Onjukka intended his comment about Adam being "a babe. As for the source of conflict between those who study scripture and those who study nature, may I suggest what has been suggessted by many others: the source of the conflict is "who controls" or "who has the final word.
Theology can still provide the last word in the areas of ethics and morality since science has nothing to say about these subjects. But theology, in the hands of literal Biblicists, still insists it has the last word even in areas that science has a lot to say. That would appear to be the source of much of the conflict. We cannot honestly, or logically, split the difference. European culture was pre-disposed to monogamy, but it was also derived from what the Bible says.
God created one wife for Adam, not multiple wives, even though multiple wives would have helped with filling the earth. God also said "a man will leave his mother and father and be joined to his wife", not wives. God's use of marriage as an analogy to his relationship with his people was also used to argue for just one husband and one wife. As we understand it, God's original plan was one man and one woman united for ever.
As you point out, sin required some accommodation, even if it was only that 'for ever' had to be modified to 'until death'. The Bible nowhere explicitly condemns polygamy, or concubinage, or slavery. But neither does it commend these things. Knowing what we do of God's character, can we commend them, or tolerate them? Can we permit them where circumstances may make them the best of bad options?
I am not sure of the answers, but they are good questions. As to who has the last word, I believe we have to be very careful that it is God via the Scriptures or any other method he chooses and not simply us using Scripture to impose our answers. You have not heard an answer because there is none. Even so, did God deal with them any differently than He does with us today just because they had multiple wives? Was He any less interested in their salvation?
Any less capable of redeeming them? Ervin wrote: " Theology can still provide the last word in the areas of ethics and morality since science has nothing to say about these subjects. Ah but perhaps it modifies those things. Perhaps the discovery of contraceptives changed the needed moral proscription of sex within marriage.
Certain things make brillant sense in a particular culture with particular scientific knowledge. But perhaps when the culture changes because of new discoveries and methods of dealing with things the theology should also change.
That of course is the rub. Where one thing may be called progress in life and the other side may call it creeping compromise. Can mankind change and adapt or not is the question. The literal account of Creation Week is not a myth as suggested but is what the Bible clearly teaches. To pass off such a wonderful act of Creation by an Intelligent Designer as a myth is to accuse the Holy Bible and God of teaching myths.
The seven day weekly cycle also emerges from within this context too. The 'even to even' literal 24 hour day makes good sense when considering that Jesus observed the Sabbath which was the usual 'even to even' one. Imagine an evolving life-form during an 'invisible' transitional stage in which the Reproductive System was still in the process of evolving. How would it all work when considering the complexity and design necessary for it all to work?
A free for all license to engage in 'hanky panky' premarital 'college' sex or any other 'cultural sex' venue is contrary to what fleeing sexual immorality is about [1Cor ]. This would include the practice of self abuse by some horny sex crazed enthusiasts.
I'm afraid this post speaks for itself as one perspective. The validity of this perspective is so far from an evidence-based view that I honestly cannot accept any of it. Nearly every assertion included seems bizarre to me—as if it were all part of a paranoid thought matrix. With apologies in advance to Trevor and others who hold this point of view, I just thought I should express my perspective.
Sir, I didn't expect a red carpet to be rolled out for me by you and some of the others holding similar worldviews as you. At least some are more equal than others which makes me happy for you. No need for apologies Sir, go for it. Joe Erwin I just had a thought when I read your post above—if we could tell those who lived and supposedly experienced the events of Genesis the Exodus, flood, etc. And paranoid for sure with being watched by cameras on our streets and in shops?
Whether factual or not, the creation account is indeed a 'myth' as that term is usually used by scholars. A myth is a story designed to explain why things are the way they are. If Genesis 1 is not that, what is it? The argument in Adventism is not over whether Genesis 1 is a myth, but over whether it is or is not also factual. Well my good friends here's one theologian who thinks otherwise about being too quick to put the Biblical Creation account in the myth box as he seems to think that it signifies more than just what a myth may signify.
I like the way he looks at it:. The German theologian Gerhard von. Rad writes in his commentary on Genesis. It is false, therefore, to reckon. What is said here is intended. There is no. These words come from one of the. According to him, from a hermeneutical. So you found one person who says 'it isn't a myth'? That doesn't change the fact that it is, by definition, a myth. Von Rad is arguing against the idea of a 'myth' as being untrue, something no one here has suggested. He is saying that Genesis was written to explain a belief, and not cobbled together from old and half-true stories.
Most of us agree with that. I would disagree about there being nothing 'whose deeper meaning has to be deciphered'. It has long been recognised that Genesis is a polemic against polytheistic ideas then current. Genesis can be a doctrine expressed in mythic form, or it can be a legend expressed in mythic form, or it could even be a wonderful poem that was meant to be understood symbollically written in mythic form.
However you understand it, the form is a myth: it is written to explain how things came to be how they are. Whether it is also a doctrine, a poem, an allegory or a polemical story doesn't change that. As Tolkien pointed out long ago, the true myths are the best ones. Kevin, There is an element to mythology, whether factual or not, that you overlook.
That element or aspect would be that of the supernatural. Mythology, even in the scholarly sense, invariably includes some supernatural aspect to the explanation of things as they are. I believe you are correct. Somewhere in every myth there is usually something that goes beyond the ordinary. I suspect it is becasue most people throughout time have had serious doubts that all we see has a very ordinary beginning.
Perhaps that is why I find myself very reluctant to accept a naturalistic explanation of of life and how it began. If some don't like the word "myth" to describe the opening chapters of Genesis even though it is, from a dictionary point of view, an appropriate word , let's call those passages "narratives.
Are Adam and Eve actual, literal, historic human beings who lived indiividual lives living in a Garden with a talking snake? Did the ancient Hebrews think they were "real" people. Most all? Did Jesus' discourses assume that they were "real" people? Since most, probably all, of the people he was talking to assumed that they were, what would we expect?. Is this an important topic for modern Christiains to be concerned about?
Only for those who need to believe in an totally error free Bible. Ya know, I used to be worried about your influence on people who might read what you post and have a weak mind in the faith. Or about non-SDA's who stumble across this on-line site and get the impression you represent the Churches train-of-thought. But not anymore. When one has spent so much life effort learning the myth of evolution, and so much time using their talents to convince people NOT to believe the opening of the word of God-you are so far adrift you can't even see the shoreline anymore…..
With all due respect, I don't see how anyone can take you serious-in or out of Adventism…. Pardon my ignorance, but I have never met SDAs who didn't take the creation narritve literally. If the creation story isn't true, then why believe in the Bible at all? Why wouldn't Adam and Eve be actual human beings who lived and were kicked out the Garden?
If they werern't real than logically the entire chapter of Gen 4 Cain and Able, plus subsequent geniology would read as "not real" as well. Where is the line drawn? May I suggest that meeting more SDAs would be beneficial in many ways. I doubt there is a position on origins that is not held by an SDA somewhere. One of the wonders of the internet is that we get to meet, and sometimes even like, people who hold positions we could never have imagined on our own.
And then we sometimes find people with the same views right in our own local church. There is so much we don't share with each other, for a number of reasons. Not factual? Not true? Nothing to teach us? What you mean by 'real' changes the answer a lot. The same goes for the question of what you mean by 'true'. It is not just a semantic game. The parables of Jesus were true, and taught real lessons, but were they also factual?
Think carefully before answering that, as it has disturbing implications. A month late, but by real I mean actually happened, as in, if I had a video camera and the proper angle, I could have recorded the entire event and played it back when I chose. I don't think there is a way to "know" for sure if the parables were factual or not, but I don't treat them that way.
From what I understand of the culture, they seemed to be just contextual stories for the people or anologies, not recounts of actual events. Eaton makes a good point often raised when this topic is considered. Once you begin the process of evaluating and rethinking that the Genesis narratives I didn't say "myth," but it's the same thing as symbolic of a much greater "truth" that being a literal story, where do you stop?
It's the slippy slope problem. Are Cain and Able real people?. Was there a "real" world-wide flood? Is there a "real" Noah's Ark on the "Mountains of Ararat"? Is Hamlet "real"? It seems to me, if Adam and Eve story is a fable, then I am a fable and I am not breathing and all of you are men babbling and talking but you are not real. We'll leave the bait on the hook for now. How about respecting the question itself? Charles is new to this space.
He, like others, is perplexed about the disconnect between Adventists by faith and cultural adventists. PS There is a "disconnect" between traditional Adventists and cultural Adventists. That's a fact. Moving on. Do you have a text to start us on this journey? So much of importance does indeed lie in 'the silence'. I still suspect it is God waiting for our response so he can continue the dialog, but perhaps that is heresy. Your question really should extend to verse 4.
This is where your question brings us to the "fork in the road. There are 2 interpretations available to Genesis 6: the sons of God were either sons of Seth, or angels. We could also suggest the question was never intended to be asked. Is the entire "story" of Genesis any different?
When one compares it to what nature says about how it and we came to be, one is left with a gaping chasm between the reality we see and the descriptions given in Genesis. At best Genesis should be taken as an attempt to grapple with origins, meaning and what it means to be human. How is this relevant to the blog? Well, when there is a massive divide between human culture and theological directives of a "book" that is given full authority on ones life, one must either ignore the differences, live according to their culture, and try to banish the subsequent guilt; Try to reinterpret the differences, often requiring twisted logic to do so; convince themselves that the "book" is correct, and attempt to live a "holy" life according to its "agreed" standards, but end up in endless conflict with their own very human nature and the reality of what it means to be human.
Of all these options, imo the last is the worst and saddest because it robs people of the simple joy of what life can be. The theme of the blog highligths a key problem. Much of our culture and lifestyle is way out of sync with that described, and demanded by most interpretations of Scripture. Perhaps we owe it to Charles to return to a discussion of the topic he addressed, as has been suggested by Erv, Chris, Timo, Preston, and others.
Discussions of sex and sexuality are necessarily rather delicate in venues such as this. Much of what we feel that we know about sex is from our personal experience, which might be quite a lot or not much at all. And it is usually rather private—and that is a special problem, because many of us are not writing anonymously, and, due to the close-knit SDA community, what we write may well be read by people we know, one or more of our spouses, or even our relatives.
If we are prudent, we will avoid detailed descriptions of our own experiences. For those who have been pastors or counselors or teachers, or have otherwise lived in the world, we have some vicarious experiences through the eyes of those who have confided in us. Then, of course, we have factual academic or fictional information regarding how people relate to each other, not to mention explicit magazines or videos that are abundantly available, whether or not we have a peek at them.
In addition to all that, my professional experience includes observations and literature reviews of comparative reproductive biology and behavior—as well as, growing up on a ranch and being exposed to the breeding of animals from a young age. So, some of the points made about the issues addressed in "Dawn of Sex" and similar books are familiar territory to me. My view includes the following: Humans and other primates and other animals exhibit a dramatic array of individual differences in sexuality.
Overgeneralization and stereotyping is likely to mislead us about the inclinations of individuals. Joe, Thanks for the reminder about the potential results from generalizing and stereotyping too much. Such actions may reveal more about our own prejudices and sins than they do about the person we are evaluating and judging. I appreciate your reminder about us being good at the little arguments. Which leads me to ask: If God is silent on a topic, shouldn't we also be quiet?
My eyes filled with tears as I read this blog and all the responses. At last a discussion with honesty about issues that face us all — if we are candid with ourselves. I want to thank the majority that kept this discussion on the subject, Instead of two sides attacking each other there was open dialogue about sex and the Bible. I have often wondered about a lot of what was voiced and it was so refreshing to read the candidness of those sharing — their questions, beliefs, and uncertainties.
I want to thank AT for the courage to post this blog and to you that responded. You asked some good questions in your blog. But, if you were given the responsibility — by God or the church — of setting out guidelines for sexual relations in the C21st century, where would you start? Kevin… if Bathsheba could have had an abortion would it make David more innocent of what he did?
It was easier for David to take Uriah out of the picture rather than the child he created yet both would have taken a murder. Instead of imagining adultry in their minds we now in the 21st century can commit it with the click of a mouse. Sin in the transgression of God's Law yet we look at the world and its political views and compare our actions to them. Sex, being the "act of marraige" was designed for "two to become one" and the gift of procreation by the Creator.
Charles…As far as women in ministry planing to go "knuckle to knuckle with the conference", I would say they need to take thier issue to Gods Word and the SOP which is quite clear on this matter. Timo how did Christ update the definition of adultery when he spoke about it in the Word of God? One can be tempted without acting on the situation. John the baptist lost his head for calling sin by it's name. If we honestly follow Christ's way it does make our choice as a "vote for the will of God" rather than "personal choice" in this great controversy.
Instead of a fork in the road we may think we are heading to the same destination…. It pretty much seems like the scriptural portrayal of Christ's attitude is that sexuality is pretty personal and is mainly the business of the person or people involved. He seems to have compassionately indicated that it is not our job to judge the sexuality of others or for them to judge us. As far as the church's role, it seems to me like the main role would be education designed to help people understand and avoid problem behaviors and their consequences.
But there is an obvious need for the messages given to be accurate and current not like the pronoucements of EGW regarding self-pleasure. There is a need to understand STDs, how they are transmitted, how to avoid harming one's partner, etc. Simple as that… Forget arguments about meanings of words, historical context, current context: Just take God at his Word. The result? More of the same. That is pretty much what has got us where we are, all we end up with is debate over meanings, context, relevance etc and denying the reality of what it is to be human.
Examine sex and sexuality within other forms of life. Study the evolution of and role of sex and sexuality in the evolutionary development of humanity whether or not one accepts evolution 3. Survey sexual practices across cultures, past and present 4. Examine the impacts of varying sexual practices on the health, survival, and emotional wellbeing of the peoples of both genders in those cultures.
Survey mythology, sacred writings, and spiritual teachings across cultures and time. Bible included. Pull together the results into guidelines which can offer the best combination of health, survival, and emotional wellbeing for individuals and society as a whole.
Comment : Recognition of the role evolution has played in the formation of human nature, combined with "demotion" of the Bible from role of "arbiter of truth" will alter our understanding of sex and sexuality. Sex and sexuality in themselves perhaps should not be considered from a moral perspective. They are amoral if you like. No different to almost everything else in life. I can use a gun to shoot clay targets. The gun is not a moral object, but I can sure use it in an "evil" way. Just so, I suspect the above survey would not find many cultures where rape was condoned.
Nor that it has improved the emotional wellbeing of the subject of the action. Use of ones body for such a purpose could be defined as "wrong" or "evil". A moral issue if you like. Perhaps after all ones research it would come down to the golden rule. Love God, look out for your neighbor. That of course includes yourself…don't try to twist your thinking and your body into a pretzel making it out to be something it never evolved to be. Sexuality with its drives, desires, and needs is very much a part of what it means to be human.
Be respectful of others, recognize the emotional issues tied up with sexuality, and sexual expression. Seek to be healthy in your choices and lifestyle. Every choice will have its benefits, it price, or its effect on you or someone else. Be wise. Do you have a better idea than the one God mentioned on abstinence until married? Yes you are totally correct about needing the Church to get involved in the education of this matter. As you said to "understand and avoid problem behaviors and their consequences.
God has a plan for this in His church if we would only follow what He says in Titus 2. Ordination is not a factor in this one. Thanks Charles for going after the hard stuff. Sex was always pretty much a topic like: something you did in the dark and later pretend it never happened! It would be nice to see the open discussion in our clan turn into real ministry that not only teaches core Kingdom values that supercede earthy culture but ministry that restores sexual purity to broken people.
Sex is an important part of life. Attractions and urges are surely not evils. And even the advice Onan received surely is not a universal truth. Loading all sexuality with excessive guilt is, in my opinion, terribly distorting and destructive.
I think much of what you write is on a similar page to mine, though I have to confess you, like Paul, write some things hard to understand. If you take the garden story to which you allude literally, where else can you end up than with woman being "made" with the ultimate purpose of meeting man's need? Is it no wonder that the subjugation you speak of took place? I fully agree with you that it is time we overcame our shame of being wrong and learned from history etc.
I like the drift of what you say, but I also wonder that all these things you say will continue to be a matter of interpretation and emphasis until the deeper issue of the role and authority of Scripture is actually dealth with. Perhaps our shame at being wrong on that issue is even deeper than to have been wrong on our theology and relational dynamics of sex and sexuality.
Until we address this deeper issue we will in reality be no different to Islam where you will find a spectrum of views from "liberal" to extremist, …all based on interpretations of "their" sacred writings. Perhaps none asking the deeper question of why and what authority the Koran should have. Forgive me if I have missed some of where you are coming from, as some things you say require careful reading:. Since there is a committee studying the biblical meaning of ordination, perhaps there should be one studying the biblical concept of marriage.
What I get from the Bible thus far: Before the fall Adam and Eve were equal; after the fall women became subject to men and painful childbirth. This is similar to the use of animals for food—it was not the original plan, yet today we seek to get back to an Eden diet.
In the same way we seek to get back to equality of all humans. There is no indication that a "wedding cermony" occurred between the first two humans, but that they were considered man and wife. When did weddings begin among the primitive humans when they "took" wives? Not too long after this, we learn they are taking multiple wives and concubines any weddings??
The women are faithful to one person but not the husbands. This is the pattern through the OT. Somewhere wedding ceremonies came into practice, and apparently marriages were recorded within the theocracy of Israel. In the NT church leaders are to have only one wife presuming that some Christians must have had more. Thus we might say that in the Christian religion the practice of one wife and one husband was a religiously-binding event referred to as marriage.
Does this make marriage a religious right for believers but mean something else for nonbelievers making it more of a legal requirement for legal benefits? If the latter is true, then denying marriage for same-sex partners would seem to be discrimination, because they would not have access to the legal benifits of marriage. If they want a religious marriage, that is their choice and not subject to law; because it is a matter of religious liberty. Nevertheless, they should have access to marriage benefits regardless of belief perhaps through a civil certificate as required of all marriages.
Otherwise wouldn't government be intruding on personal liberties, even religious ones? On the other hand, wouldn't religous liberty protect those churches who find such partnerships immoral from having to employ said partners? Since we are dealing here with behavior and not a racial issue, would that be different? Catholic Charities Texas? I think so, as there are other agencies the partners coud go to in the country. Weddings were civil rites in almost all ancient societies, and are still so today in many countries.
Weddings became religious rites conducted in churches only a century or so ago. Until then, most weddings were conducted at home and the marriage then recorded by the church. A church blessing, often not in the actual sanctuary, was optional. The RCC consdiers the couple to be the ones who act as priests and so sanctify the marriage. That is why they and all Protestant churches recognise all legal marriages as being valid. That very much argues against the belief that marriage is a religious rite.
If it were, we would insist it must be done properly by a specific group of people. We do not recognise any baptism as valid unless performed by a Christian and by immersion. We recognise as valid only ordinations conducted by authorised SDA workers.
So, where marriage consists of the man and woman spending the night together and then eating breakfast together publicly, we recognise that as a valid marriage. It seems to be only in Western countries we insist they must have a wedding ceremony, even where the state and society recognise de facto and common law marriages by giving them the same rights as legal marriages.
I am not sure we can equate ancient marriage customs, even those recorded in the Bible, with God's will in any complete way. But I would hope that we would take into account that God's plan was for one man and one woman to be united for ever.
Sin necessitates change to that simply because we no longer live for ever. Just how much change is where we seem not to have been able to reach agreement. Even if God did not approve of polygamy and concubinage, he did accommodate his laws to take those things into account.
I am not sure that means we should look to those things as possibilities today, any more than we should look to slavery as a possibility. Thanks for the response. It raises some questions that are probably irrelevant to our lives, but when you say the plan was for "marriage" forever, do you see that as changing for eternity after the fall?
Jesus indicates there would be no marriage in heaven but we would be like the angels. Concerning baptism by immersion required in the SDA Church, I may be wrong but it seems I have been part of a church that accepted other kinds of baptism and took in born-again Christians on the basis of Profession of Faith. When talking about religious rights not rites in this country, I was referring to the separation of church and state that would seem to be broken down if an amendment were passed that marriage could be between only a man and woman.
This would take away the religious or nonreligious practices of some people and deny them the legal benefits of the marriage custom. This would not mean that all Christian pastors would be forced to perform such marriages, since it would be against their belief systems. One wonders if God would make accommodation for today's cohabitation and partnerships which seem no worse than the polygamy of the past and in fact less destructive. Jesus was very clear that 1 there will be no 'marrying and giving in marriage' in heaven and 2 that we will be like the angels in this resepct.
You could not ask for a clearer statement. It's just a pity that he did not say anything about current marriages continuing or not, nor do we have any information on what angels are like. While it is true Jesus said there would be no marrying in heaven Mt , do we assume that applies to our life on the restored earth?
On the matter of divorce, Jesus pointed us back to Eden where He stated "it was not this way from the beginning" Mt Could the "restoration of all things" Ac include the divine institution of marriage? Something to ponder…. This time, I wish to suggest that the women of the church should have absolutely equal consideration and status with men.
They should insist on it. My sister would have been a fine church leader, and maybe even a GC President, had she not been dissed and brushed aside by the SDA church in the s. She now serves on a bishops council in her Catholic diocese, pressing for appropriately equal as a Catholic Christian—she would say, catholic with a "small c.
All "sin" is not equal. That includes various thoughts and acts regarding sex that get labelled as "sin. Someone is sure to claim that "a sin is a sin, no matter how small," and that it will still get you a ticket to hell. One consequence of that reasoning is "if I have already sinned in my heart, I might as well carry through and complete the associated action.
Actions have consequences aside from ending up in heaven or hell that differ in magnitude of pleasure or pain or harm. I'm thinking we should be trying to get people to consider the consequences of their actions as they consider choices of what to do and what not to do. Maybe the concept of "sin" is not as helpful in this process as is due consideration…. Joe, You stated that "All 'sin' is not equal. In my opinion, we will all die whether we sin or not. What happens after that?
I do not know for sure, but my best guess is that we cease to exist. No heaven. No hell. No resurection. No judgement. No rewards. No punishments. I also do not think humans are "fallen" beings. I see no need for redemption. However, I do see value in treating each other with care, consideration, and respect. And honesty. Your question is a good one to be considered by believers in the absolute inerrant authority of scripture and in the Genesis stories of the origins of humans and their fall from grace.
Of course, some will attribute my thoughts to the devil, but please note: what I have said is the opposite of the words attributed to Lucifer. He ostensibly said, "you will not surely die. And, furthermore, I am perfectly comfortable with that. In my view, any positive or negative consequences of our sexual thoughts or behaviors will occur in the real world. But that world includes our imaginations, guilt trips, etc. While our own experiences may be private, so are those of others involved directly or indirectly.
So, our responsibilies are extensive and complicated, and we have obligations to others—probably even extending, in part, to others in our social circles. So, it is my impression that mankind created God in his own image, and that humans invented religion to help answer questions about the unknown and to provide some comfort in times of distress. It probably did not take long for religion to take on additional functions, such as, its use by the powerful to manipulate the powerless.
Religion has clearly been used repeatedly to justify slavery, to subjugate women, and to control children and others. So, of course, it is interesting to discuss with religious people issues related to justifying denial of equal rights and responsibilities of women and men. It seems to me that a church that values fairness would not have much difficulty with this issue, at least in modern America.
Why is it so hard to adapt to life in the 21st century? I will posit that whilst Pluralism is an admirable courtesy extended to visitors and residents of many countries around the world, the US of A is one such fine example , for which many of us are indeed grateful recipients, there is a tendency, in my opinion, for many in society to extrapolate this Pluralism to mean Moral Relativism in which there are no absolutes.
I think that there are. In the Christian playground one has to take into account that Sexual Immorality undoubtedly has to be reckoned with when addressing issues regarding sex. It gets worse: If evolution theory on the other hand is brought into the equation then all forms of human morality can be questioned and a raw animal instinct, dog eat dog mindset may very well be the order of the day, after all, where would all this Morality come from and who or what determines right and wrong.
Trying to swallow a tripartite concoction of Pluralism, Christianity and Evolution will surely leave us dizzy with one helluva hangover of immorality and sin. The Church should stand its ground therefore, in matters of Morality and in particular, Sex. Pluralism is allowing everyone to live according to their own beliefs, in so far as that is possible without becoming a threat to the existence of society.
In any area of behaviour, allowing someone else to live by their beliefs does not obligate us to practice their beliefs. Christians can acknowledge a non-Christian's right to do certain things without having to do so themselves.
Acknowledging a right to practice a belief in no way implies acceptance of the rightness of that belief. The church should stand its ground, while recognising it can only speak for itself, not for all of society. The only authority we have, and should have, is moral authority. If we cannot convince others by our words and example, we have no right to coerce the law into imposing our beliefs on others, no matter how right we believe we are.
If the church finds it no longer speaks for all, or even most, of its members, then it is time for the church to do the hard work of determining if it is mistaken, and if not, then it needs to find new ways of expressing its beliefs so people will understand. Many members of christianity and other religions, along with nonreligious people, recognize the value of simply treating others as one wishes to be treated.
This allows for individual freedom and initiative and responsibility and fosters harmonious relationships, sexual and otherwise. Where does treating others decently come from? The "golden rule" makes sense in many contexts, just on the basis of reciprocal altruism. Rather than "dog eat dog," it is an attitude of "live and let live.
At the same time, it is quite clear that humans are capable of treachery beyond "raw animal instinct" or "nature, red in tooth and claw. There are some very natural moral and ethical considerations regarding sexuality, some of them are situationally diverse and related to psychological and physical health. But I don't want you judging what happens in my bedroom any more than I care what happens in yours. Thanks Charles, I am a relatively young Adventist myself and I know many of my own Adventist friends have struggled with this topic — including being persecuted by the Board and Elders despite they themselves being divorcees.
For example, consider:. Bottom line is — be careful of comparing oranges, to apples, to pears. Are we missing something in not bringing up Jacob "Israel" and Leah and Rachel and their handmaidens? Or Solomon, in all his wisdom? The biblical messages are mixed. How can we pretend otherwise? Are we discussing this now because of concerns about the characters of high-profile political figures? We went together for seven years, off and on, and stayed married for only four years.
A few years later I married a divorced non-religious woman to whom I have been married for nearly 39 years. It is not appropriate for me to explain the reasons for the divorces. The first marriage of my wife was officially annulled so her ex-husband could marry a catholic woman.
So we don't know what that makes the children of whom he is the biological father, but we have a happy family with grandchildren. We just don't worry about it, and it isn't anyone else's business. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.
Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? I also agree that the biblical texts are perhaps mixed. Joe, I wasn't having a go at divorcees — I was just making the point about generational hypocrisy. The Church has become very lax on the issue of divorce at the same time as ramping up against young couples in de facto relationships.
Maybe a little less judgment all round is what is in order. I certaintly hope no one judges you because it really is no one else's business as you say but likewise I hope you don't go around judging other young people about their own supposed sexual sins. I am sure you don't but unfortunately many in the Church do. Thanks, Stephen.
I certainly agree with you that older members of the church have no business applying a standard to young people that they are unwilling to uphold for themselves or their peers. That said, it is probably also apparent that I think people have to develop and uphold their own standards of conduct and decency, and it is up to them—not others in or out of their church—to enforce the standards.
Of course, some of the standards also have real and appropriate legal bases, such as prohibition of incest, sexual abuse, etc. What happens between consenting adults is up to them; but as they consider what to do and what not to do, they need to take into account how any relationship they have can affect other people and the commitments they have made to others. Personally, I think if Adam and Eve are a fable, then I am a fable and I am not really typing these words and I am not really breathing and I did not really happen.
My first premise is, I have personally concluded that the Bible is my rule of faith. So after taking several hours to read this post, I am looking in the Bible to try to understand something about this. Genesis 1: And God said, Let "us" make man, in "our" image in "our" likeness and let "them" rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. In this story, God refers to God as "us" and he refers to man as "them". It says let "us" make man in "our" image. It sounds like conception, to me. It sounds like the celebration at the end of creation. Is it possible that God is the first set of parents? That this was family planning? This sounds like the most beautiful possible honor … to be made, created, in the very image of God. It is an honor, beyond my wordsmithing capability to express, how honored I feel, to have been created by this "us" God.
It makes me also convicted of my deep responsibility to give honor back to God in how I live, in my commitments, in my body. I want to run everything I do, by Him in my thoughts and prayers, before I do anything. God's very words at creation are instilled into my heart …. I notice that polygamy is discussed rather candidily, invitingly, wishful thinking; but in no place, did I see or hear discussed the actual stories and the pain in humanity that polygamy has caused.
Today, I was reading about the story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. When Abraham and Sarah lied about their marriage, entire regions' wombs were locked down. Think of the emotional pain of infertility. Have you ever tried getting pregnant and not been able to? Have you ever miscarried? God offered womb lockdown, until Abraham and Sarah told the truth and made this right.
This sounds important. When Sarah and Abraham sent Hagar and her boy Ishmael away; she was only given a little food and a skin of water … It describes Hagar as sobbing and God heard her sobs and provided for her and her boy… this is only one of the stories that describes the dysfunctionality of this type of arrangement.
This type of arrangement resulted in hate, deceipt, abandonment, abuse, neglect, betrayal, pain. God had to intervene to bring healing out of the dysfunction. This is not a picture of God condoning polygamy, but a picture of God providing salvation, having mercy on the slave mother and child born into this dysfunction. Genesis 20 and Possibly why there is so much gray area allowed is because there are clergy involved as perpetrators or sex addicts.
For example, the Christian organization "Pure Desire International" not SDA was originally founded to offer a place to get healed of sexual addictions for pastors and their wives. This must mean there is a problem that no one really talks about or wants to talk about, in churches. It is nice meeting you here. You have expressed yourself well, and I respect your beliefs. I apologize if I sometimes seem intolerant of views that are unlike my own.
As long as you can believe as you do, I encourage you to do so. For those who find that they cannot believe that way, you are likely to have found that changing you views have not ended the world. Jan, I have no difficulty at all in believing that you exist and that you have typed out your comments.
I am skeptical, at best, that Adam and Eve really existed, or at least, that the familiar Genesis origins narrative is literally factual. I do not see that narrative as being consistent with factual real world physical evidence of an ancient world and universe where life has existed for hundreds of millions of years.
But you believe what you believe, even if my belief differs. What either of us believes does not make it so, one way or the other. What does matter, I think, is that we treat one another as we would wish to be treated—hopefully, with warmth and respect. It seems to me that much of the importance has to do with deception, yet, in several cases, it seems that deception was almost condoned in terms of the ultimate consequences.
There certainly was plenty of drama. Thank you, Joe. I have a personal belief that it is possible to track human history back to Adam and Eve. I believe that their DNA is in me, as in a family lineage. I believe it is possible to track back through written lineage. Before written lineage the only thing they had was verbal lineage, but they had family intentioned story telling events, to keep the verbal history going. So, I believe it. They couldn't have written it if not told it first, it was too complicated to make it up.
It doesn't seem difficult at all, for me to believe this. I do not know how long it took before Adam asked for Eve but he apparently did. I'm not sure why he did because recorded history has shown that women were soon disdained, not cared for as one would care for a precious gift they had asked for, but he did ask for her according to the recorded history.
It does not bother me, that God may have used ancient carbon dated material to create the matter of things He spoke into existence. It does not bother me, that this earth may not be the only earth. Even though I am fair skinned, It does not bother me that my heritage includes being made in the image of the "us" God and that "they" God may be dark skinned, as in the color of some clays on earth. It does not bother me, that I do not know everything. It does not bother me that I now see through a glass darkly, but someday, I will know alot more.
If you are inquiring about my faith, the fact that Jesus Christ is NOT in the grave and other religious prophets are in their grave sets seal on Him to me; He is the One to follow, of all these choices. The main reason I'm convinced that the Bible is a reliable source for my convictions is that the efforts to destroy it have been really without ceasing, everything from national Bible burning parties to killing people if they owned one and yet … it is still here.
It took people, like the Waldenceans weaving pages into their garments and risking their lives to preserve it … but, it is still here. The fact that people would risk their lives really puts impact into my thinking. I value it as one source of my faith in God.
I also have had many personal experiences where God came along side of me when life was crushing me and He was there. I did not audibly hear His voice, but I sure felt Him at my side, in my skin. This is another source of my faith. If you and your wife want to discuss this further, I'm willing to, but not on this public forum because the experiences are too graphic and personal.
Joe, I appreciate how you are willing to come on this site, even though you do not have the same beliefs and engage with, encourage and care about those who are writing here. Thank you for reaching out to me. If you look at the OT text about marrying someone you have had sex with, it should suggest that sex does not equal marriage.
Divorce is not adultery. If you divorce and then remarry, except for 'porneia', you are guilty of adultery. Nowhere does the Bible equate divorce with adultery. In practice, the Bible equates marriage with a public ceremony that states that a woman has been asked to accept a proposition of marriage and she or her father on her behalf has accepted.
It was a binding agreement, although I believe it could be broken by mutual consent of both families. It was essentially a family affair, as it was into medieval times, and even later in many areas. Re divorce — ok divorce and remarriage, except for porneia, is adultery, not just divorce per se. However, in my experience, there are plenty of people in the Church who are both divorced and remarry. I have no real problem with that because it is none of my business , except that some of these same people are Elders of the Church, and go on to enforce the 'Church's standards' re to young people.
With some irony, it only seems to be Roman Catholics who still uphold the long held Christian standards on divorce. There is a whole chapter in the SDA Church Manual on divorce and about one sentence on de facto cohabitation, but these days you would think it the opposite.
You say marriage has must involve a public ceremony — who says? What about Adam and Eve? If you say, God and the Angels, how is that different from a young de facto couple today? Even if it has to be a public ceremony, who says what type? In many cultures involving arranged marriages, the bride and groom do not partake in a public ceremony together e. These 19 th Century views do not necessary fit with either non-Western paradigms of marriage, nor arguably modern Western views, or even arguably a strictly biblical view.
In full disclosure, I am married myself and not divorced. This only bugs me because I have seen young people in our own Church been forcibly removed from positions and then leaving the Church , by Elders and Pastors who themselves have a questionable right to cast the first stone. If leaders are going to enforce Christian standards of behaviour, they should start with the top in their older generation, not coming down so hard on young people, otherwise they risk being abject hypocrites.
We all tend to view the Bible through our own eyes. That tends to diminish, if not entirely hide, our own sins while leaving the sins of others in plain sight. I would agree, marriage in the Bible is not simply 19th century marriage. Nor is it 2st century marriage. In 'foreign' lands we have tended to accept cultural definitions of marriage, as long as it involves only one man and one woman. For a while we debated about polygamy, but in the end decided it was 'unBiblical'.
So we asked men with more than one wife to 'put away' all but one. As a man with three wives once pointed out to me, God is silent on polygamy, but says clearly that he 'hates divorce', yet the church sees divorce as the solution to polygamy.
It seems that in 'home' countries we are reluctant to accept cultural definitions of marriage, but insist on a 'church wedding' as the only legitimate form for a marriage to take. Perhaps our reluctance comes from a recognition that some forms of marriage today do not take the form of 'leaving and cleaving'. While that is true of some de facto relationships, it seems increasingly common that people enter into a marriage with at least a tacit understanding that it may not last.
How far can we depart from 'one man and one woman united for ever', and in how many directions, before what we call 'marriage' no longer resembles what God intended?
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|Speed dating in buffalo ny||Seventh Day Adventists believe that the Sabbath begins at the end of the sixth day, which is considered Friday and lasts one day, which is Saturday. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt. Ephesians I will hold others accountable by clicking "report" on comments that violate these principles, based not on what ideas are expressed but on how they're expressed. But overall, I am comfortable in the fact that I know that I am right she is laughing at me right nowand she is comfortable knowing that she is right too. Ashli-Jane Benggon. The General Conference is also responsible for the spiritual development of the church.|
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